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Variable Fighter Master File: VF-1 Valkyrie Wings of Space:  http://sdfyodogawa.mywebcommunity.org/OTvfmf/OTvfmf.php

Additional translations of the FAST Pack section (Pgs 021-025).

 

For those participating in that discussion where the subject of the Strike Valkyrie not actually having participating in SWI came up: therein contains a detailed description of how it wasn't possible.  And Seto, it also includes the passage you alluded to (however, it means something different than what you think you read.  ;) ).

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“The development commencement time for this pack is considered to be around the first half -year of 2012, and if that is true,  than the one that the Captain tested is very likely to have been a prototype model Close to a mock-up that cannot fire live rounds.”

Intersting..

”Incidentally , although it generally came to be known for appearing in the *movie that depicted the SDF-1 Macross’s first sortie, that one was naturally for the production, as even a development program did not exist for it at the time.”

They’re messing with my head!

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41 minutes ago, Bolt said:

”Incidentally , although it generally came to be known for appearing in the *movie that depicted the SDF-1 Macross’s first sortie, that one was naturally for the production, as even a development program did not exist for it at the time.”

They’re messing with my head!

Especially because that's *not* the DYRL movie that they're referring to in the book.  DYRL is apparently a sequel to the movie that they're referring to!  :unknw:

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Posted (edited)

Please illuminate me..:(

I read the asterisk notes and still didn’t get it..apparently.

Edited by Bolt

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Bottom of page 23.

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2 hours ago, sketchley said:

For those participating in that discussion where the subject of the Strike Valkyrie not actually having participating in SWI came up: therein contains a detailed description of how it wasn't possible.  And Seto, it also includes the passage you alluded to (however, it means something different than what you think you read.  ;) ).

To be fair, I did indicate I was going from a memory of something I'd seen in the book last time I skimmed it. ;) 

Cheers for doing a full translation of that section so swiftly tho. :) 

 

Master File's handling of the RO-X2A high-powered beam cannon pod really is kind of a mess.

How did they put an RO-2A in a 2012 movie that was filmed before development of the RO-2A even began?  That doesn't make any sense no matter how I look at it.  It's right up there with that weird VF-19 goof they copied from Macross Chronicle about the VF-19 command variant having less thrust and more weight yet still somehow having a faster rate of climb and top speed.  WTF.

Though the real nitpick I keep having with Master File books is their weird blind spot when it comes to particle beam weapons.  It's like they've forgotten those were a thing in Macross, or even in general, so they present every beam weapon that isn't a dimensional energy weapon as a laser.  The RO-X2A was their first victim, so it got demoted from particle beam weapon to a gas dynamic laser system.  Deuterium fluoride is a weird choice for spacecraft-mounted laser weaponry.  It's a powerful real-world laser gain medium used in real world weapons-grade infrared laser systems... but the catch is that the reason it's advantageous in the real world is the longer micrometer wavelength infrared laser it produces suffers less attenuation from atmospheric gases.  There's no benefit to a deuterium fluoride laser in a space-exclusive application, and I have no idea why they're claiming the system releases toxic waste during operation because that's just not true even with today's most powerful applications.  I'm not sure what to say about saying that mirrors and lenses can't focus a multi-megawatt infrared laser because that's not really correct either... we use these systems TODAY at power levels exceeding a megawatt for missile interception.  An unfocused laser is just a waste of power.

The bit about not being able to use it for anti-aircraft uses feels like crossing the line all the way to critical research failure.  This is a laser system... the epitome of relativistic point-and-click.

The one part that really strikes me as well-considered was using the GIC system from the VF-1's thermonuclear reaction turbine engines as a reaction chamber for the infrared chemical laser.  With that kind of compression force, dozens of megawatts likely would be lowballing it.  This would be a VERY scary weapon.  The bit about using the GIC to drive a gas-dynamic chemical laser system because the VF-1 had inadequate electrical surplus to brute force a more powerful diode-pumped alkali laser system is also reasonably well thought-out.

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9 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

To be fair, I did indicate I was going from a memory of something I'd seen in the book last time I skimmed it. ;) 

Cheers for doing a full translation of that section so swiftly tho. :) 

(...)

The bit about not being able to use it for anti-aircraft uses feels like crossing the line all the way to critical research failure.  This is a laser system... the epitome of relativistic point-and-click.

The one part that really strikes me as well-considered was using the GIC system from the VF-1's thermonuclear reaction turbine engines as a reaction chamber for the infrared chemical laser.  With that kind of compression force, dozens of megawatts likely would be lowballing it.  This would be a VERY scary weapon.  The bit about using the GIC to drive a gas-dynamic chemical laser system because the VF-1 had inadequate electrical surplus to brute force a more powerful diode-pumped alkali laser system is also reasonably well thought-out.

Nah... I had finished that section well before it came up in discussion.  Marking it up in PHP and slapping it onto my site was on the to-do list (after I had completed the rest of the FAST Packs section).  But you know that old story: started working on the VF-1EX translations... and then got a load of work from my side job at a translation company. :crazy:

 

Perhaps we should take what they say about the beam gun not being used for AA purposes with a grain of salt: as you pointed out, it's a very scary weapon.  So, while they didn't describe it that way, it would be a complete and total waste to use it on a 'mere' airplane (on par with overkill taking it past the scorched earth degree).

 

Though, that reminds me of something: these books are written from the perspective of 'in-universe publications'.  Could it be what we're seeing is really a bit of misdirection to hide the weapon's true capabilities ? ;)

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misdirection sounds like something Comstar would do, in it's early TRO's. Perhaps the way they worded was intentionally vague?

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1 hour ago, sketchley said:

Nah... I had finished that section well before it came up in discussion.  Marking it up in PHP and slapping it onto my site was on the to-do list (after I had completed the rest of the FAST Packs section).  But you know that old story: started working on the VF-1EX translations... and then got a load of work from my side job at a translation company. :crazy:

Yup, that sounds about right.  I get the same treatment all the time from my colleagues in Turin.

 

1 hour ago, sketchley said:

Perhaps we should take what they say about the beam gun not being used for AA purposes with a grain of salt: as you pointed out, it's a very scary weapon.  So, while they didn't describe it that way, it would be a complete and total waste to use it on a 'mere' airplane (on par with overkill taking it past the scorched earth degree).

Thinking on it, there's an even weirder problem with their explanation of the RO-2A...

They assert this deuterium fluoride infrared gas dynamic chemical laser system has as its core the gravity and inertia controller and reaction chamber from the FF-2001 engine.  Why isn't this a heavy quantum reaction beam weapon instead?  They've got a compact fold carbon coil there producing and storing heavy quantum that's being used to control the gain medium flow in their laser version.  It should be easier to cut out the additional hardware that the laser would need and react the heavy quantum for production of a fusion plasma beam.

This is made extra weird by the VF-4 Master File doing exactly that with the forearm-mounted beam guns of the VF-4.  If the RO-2A was a more or less contemporary program with that, it doesn't make sense to not exploit the more powerful technology.

 

1 hour ago, sketchley said:

Though, that reminds me of something: these books are written from the perspective of 'in-universe publications'.  Could it be what we're seeing is really a bit of misdirection to hide the weapon's true capabilities ? ;)

Well, they are presented as mass market civilian publications in-universe... though I can't imagine what the military would stand to gain by obfuscating the performance characteristics of a twenty-plus year old aircraft.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

This is made extra weird by the VF-4 Master File doing exactly that with the forearm-mounted beam guns of the VF-4.  If the RO-2A was a more or less contemporary program with that, it doesn't make sense to not exploit the more powerful technology.

 

Well, they are presented as mass market civilian publications in-universe... though I can't imagine what the military would stand to gain by obfuscating the performance characteristics of a twenty-plus year old aircraft.

Re: VF-4

I think that's a case of the right hand not knowing what the left hand is doing.  Though, a more  reasonable explanation is that the VF-1 Space Wings book was published years before the VF-4 book.  Writers changed (or the writer deepened his knowledge) by the time the VF-4 book was in production.

 

Re: in-universe obfuscating

Without going into too much detail, in the justifications for why the VF-1EX (and it's immediate predecessor, the VF-1Z) were still in demand and front line use in the 2060's is because they're still capable fighters when dealing with Zentradi Mobile Weapons.  So, the context of my preceding post was preventing that information from falling into their hands.

Not to mention that military surplus VF-1's are stripped of most of their military equipment when they're sold to civilians.  While FAST Packs can be acquired, perhaps the "it makes lethal poison when used" is just one more excuse to use when the consumer says, "can I get one of those, too?" :lol:

Edited by sketchley

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On 3/25/2019 at 3:15 AM, sketchley said:

I think that's a case of the right hand not knowing what the left hand is doing.  Though, a more  reasonable explanation is that the VF-1 Space Wings book was published years before the VF-4 book.  Writers changed (or the writer deepened his knowledge) by the time the VF-4 book was in production.

Granted, but a little consistency would be nice... especially since there really wasn't a reason to downgrade the Strike Pack's RO-X2A beam cannon to a laser, or down/upgrade the VF-4 to have laser machine guns and then a converging energy cannon.

 

On 3/25/2019 at 3:15 AM, sketchley said:

Without going into too much detail, in the justifications for why the VF-1EX (and it's immediate predecessor, the VF-1Z) were still in demand and front line use in the 2060's is because they're still capable fighters when dealing with Zentradi Mobile Weapons.  So, the context of my preceding post was preventing that information from falling into their hands.

True, Variable Fighter Master File: VF-1 Valkyrie Vol.2 was an in-universe publication from 2030.  The VF-1 Valkyrie was still in the process of being phased out of frontline service by the New UN Forces at that point in time, so I guess that's motive enough on its own to want to keep some details of its technology under wraps.

I'm not completely sold on the idea that the VF-1 was still being presented as a viable frontline combat unit c.2060 though... what we know of the VF-1X++ (via Macross the Ride) was that it was favored for clandestine operations due to the VF-1's ubiquity in the secondhand market (presumably thanks to the VT-1C and VF-1C).

 

On 3/25/2019 at 3:15 AM, sketchley said:

Not to mention that military surplus VF-1's are stripped of most of their military equipment when they're sold to civilians.  While FAST Packs can be acquired, perhaps the "it makes lethal poison when used" is just one more excuse to use when the consumer says, "can I get one of those, too?" :lol:

You'd think "you go on a watchlist just for asking" would be reason enough. :p 

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Posted (edited)

One more thing that came to mind , concerning the Mauler RÖ-2A Twin abeam Cannon Pack..

”The loadable gas capacity for the laser is limited to 8 times, and after exhausting the shots, the Valkyrie has no choice  but to distance itself from the battlefield. Also,  because the RÖ-2A cannot be aimed precisely, it cannot also be used for anti-aircraft uses.”

I can recall once  where Roy Fokker was using the Mauler in an anti aircraft capacity to give the beat down on the nousjadeul-ger  that were  in the process of capturing  Hikaru, Minmay, etc. in the rings of Saturn. In fact it’s the first shot we see him take ( “hey Hikaru, making trouble again?”)  and again he fires it several more times, effectively, during that scene. (He’s also firing his gun pod , as well)

This must attest to his skill as he was maneuvering his VF-1S quickly and precisely enough to pull this off.

 

Edited by Bolt

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Regarding Translations, does anyone have a transcript of the furigana/kanji in Macross the First? Damn hard on my eyes to read and I would like  to attempt to translate it. 

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Posted (edited)

Variable Fighter Master File: VF-1 Battroid Valkyrie: http://sdfyodogawa.mywebcommunity.org/OTvfmf/OTvfmf.php

I've completed my main goal of all the bits that mention the VF-1EX, and a secondary goal of the QF-3000E (which was much more thought provoking than I thought it would be).  Alas, as my site's host has forbidden "apple incident", it means I still have to use a butchered spelling to get "Sharon Apple Incident" past their auto-censors.  :unknw:

I really like the book's reasoning for why the VF-1 continues to be produced and used 70 years after its introduction.

 

... and it begs the question, is the VF-1X++ (from MtR) the basis for the VF-1Z?  Or should we consider the VF-1X++ a fighter localized to the Macross Frontier fleet, and distinct from the VF-1J/VF-1EX lineage?

Edited by sketchley

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, sketchley said:

I've completed my main goal of all the bits that mention the VF-1EX, and a secondary goal of the QF-3000E (which was much more thought provoking than I thought it would be).  Alas, as my site's host has forbidden "apple incident", it means I still have to use a butchered spelling to get "Sharon Apple Incident" past their auto-censors.  :unknw:

I would love to know why they censor that...

(and if you ever want a domain that doesn't censor you like that, our doors remain ever open to you.)

 

Quote

I really like the book's reasoning for why the VF-1 continues to be produced and used 70 years after its introduction.

It makes a certain amount of sense and fits well with the Macross Frontier-era assertions that commercially-available VF-1s and VT-1s are common enough that they're used for pilot training even in civilian vocational schools like Mihoshi Academy (which is indicated to have maintained a number of VF-1Cs for its space navigation majors).

 

Quote

... and it begs the question, is the VF-1X++ (from MtR) the basis for the VF-1Z?  Or should we consider the VF-1X++ a fighter localized to the Macross Frontier fleet, and distinct from the VF-1J/VF-1EX lineage?

Based on my understanding of the VF-1X++ as it's described in Macross the Ride's materials, my conclusion would be that the VF-1X++ and VF-1Z represent two different offshoots of the VF-1X+ that was used by the New UN Forces into the 2040s.

The VF-1Z sounds like it's a general duty variant where the VF-1X++ was said to be a high-performance variant produced for the NUNS Special Forces for use in covert operations and the like.

Edited by Seto Kaiba

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Posted (edited)

As usual in VFMF, there are some text that embellishes serious contradictions.

If for Pioneer Planets one should go for easy to maintain, simpler VFs, Zolans can't be stated wrong with the VF-5000, which is a simpler, lighter, easier on the engines, no frills, hardly offensive, purely defensive VF, able to go toe to toe with  early series VF-1, newly built VT-1C and even double the installed power VA-3C.

Emigrant Planets, freshly colonized by emigrant fleets, should have the know how needed to handle VF-171 or at least VF-11 air wings, as frequently depicted.

Frontier Planets, I understand don't have the workforce of an Emigrant Planet but are also more at risk. The VF-9 may be an option as a superb atmospheric dogfighter with similar space limitations as the original VF-1 (maybe more acute). But we would be making the assumption the VF-11 isn't an option for whatever the reason, as VF-9 complex transformation runs counter to maintainability, while the VF-11C is already a corners cut, simpler VF-11B, with almost no loss in fighting ability.

HOWEVER, it is my understanding of the text the VF-1Z is a simpler, more rugged, still similar or slightly superior version of the VF-1. A new baseline, with improved construction techniques. THAT may be a valid reason to still build the VF-1. Because if not, VF-5000 seems a better fit.

I would rather accept the notion VF-1 is still produced as a somewhat unforgiving beast, less comfy than later designs, and thus able to be a reasonable challenge for a trainee. Besides preserving the know how about the basic principles behind VFs, both in construction and actual use.

Edited by Aries Turner
I knew I forgot something...

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10 hours ago, Aries Turner said:

If for Pioneer Planets one should go for easy to maintain, simpler VFs, Zolans can't be stated wrong with the VF-5000, which is a simpler, lighter, easier on the engines, no frills, hardly offensive, purely defensive VF, able to go toe to toe with  early series VF-1, newly built VT-1C and even double the installed power VA-3C.

You'd think pioneer planets would want to adopt the latest, most capable fighters in order to maximize the capabilities of their numerically limited defense forces.

 

10 hours ago, Aries Turner said:

Emigrant Planets, freshly colonized by emigrant fleets, should have the know how needed to handle VF-171 or at least VF-11 air wings, as frequently depicted.

Even then, we've seen (or read) that emigrant fleets do commonly use older models of variable fighter for various purposes.

For instance, in the manga Macross 7 Trash we see that the 37th large scale long distance emigrant fleet "Macross 7" is using VF-4's as training aircraft and test airframes for evaluating certain new technologies.  A testing accident that resulted in the loss of a VF-4 and the death of a soldier is what kick-starts the plot by instigating Mahara Fabrio's resignation from the military.

Later, in the light novel Macross the Ride, it's noted that the 55th large scale long distance emigrant fleet "Macross Frontier" is still in the process of decommissioning and selling or scrapping its remaining inventory of VF-11 Thunderbolts in 2058.  Main character Chelsea Scarlett buys three VF-11 airframes from the fleet's NUNS in order to construct her (third) racing VF to compete in the Vanquish League.

 

10 hours ago, Aries Turner said:

Frontier Planets, I understand don't have the workforce of an Emigrant Planet but are also more at risk. The VF-9 may be an option as a superb atmospheric dogfighter with similar space limitations as the original VF-1 (maybe more acute). But we would be making the assumption the VF-11 isn't an option for whatever the reason, as VF-9 complex transformation runs counter to maintainability, while the VF-11C is already a corners cut, simpler VF-11B, with almost no loss in fighting ability.

The VF-5000 would probably be a less than ideal choice since it's principally made for atmospheric service.  Ideally you'd want something like the VF-14, which can operate for long periods in space without needing FAST Packs or conformal fuel tanks.  The VF-11's a step in the right direction but it still suffers from most of the same problems the VF-1 had.

 

10 hours ago, Aries Turner said:

HOWEVER, it is my understanding of the text the VF-1Z is a simpler, more rugged, still similar or slightly superior version of the VF-1. A new baseline, with improved construction techniques. THAT may be a valid reason to still build the VF-1. Because if not, VF-5000 seems a better fit.

The timing definitely makes it sound like the official setting VF-1X++ Valkyrie Double Plus and not-official setting VF-1Z are closely related, both allegedly being mid-to-late 2040s era modernizations of the VF-1 that benefit from the improved materials and electronics available at the time.  Where they seem to differ is that the VF-1X++ apparently kept all of the structural refinements made by earlier improvement programs and focused on weight reduction and strength improvement, while the VF-1Z seems to be all about undoing the refinements and creating an updated version of the original VF-1 design with modern materials.  

 

10 hours ago, Aries Turner said:

I would rather accept the notion VF-1 is still produced as a somewhat unforgiving beast, less comfy than later designs, and thus able to be a reasonable challenge for a trainee. Besides preserving the know how about the basic principles behind VFs, both in construction and actual use.

In terms of the official setting, the VF-1 has stuck around as long as it has and been so widely produced because it was a comparatively cheap training aircraft whose handling had been refined to the point that you'd have to really really suck to crash one and it wouldn't break the bank if you did.  Its performance is low enough that it's not going to seriously test the limits of a trainee's g-force endurance even accidentally.  The military kept some around for training purposes for that reason, and improved special forces variants that it could use for "covert" operations... if anything involving a twelve-and-a-half meter tall robot could be considered "covert".

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

You'd think pioneer planets would want to adopt the latest, most capable fighters in order to maximize the capabilities of their numerically limited defense forces.

As Mr. Sketchley pointed out as a translator note, this is an issue of definition: that VFMF does poorly trying to define what is the difference between Pioneer, Border and Emigrant Planets.

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

The VF-5000 would probably be a less than ideal choice since it's principally made for atmospheric service.  Ideally you'd want something like the VF-14, which can operate for long periods in space without needing FAST Packs or conformal fuel tanks.  The VF-11's a step in the right direction but it still suffers from most of the same problems the VF-1 had.

But I explicitly recommended the VF-11C there, not the VF-5000, and you are right: the VF-1 WOULD STILL SUFFER most of the same problems the VF-11C would have, but aggravated with even less range in space and obsolescence. If anything, the VF-1 MAY be better in space performance than the VF-9, that was my other recommendation there (not the VF-5000), and I explicitly made that the VERY reason to choose the VF-11C instead.

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

while the VF-1Z seems to be all about undoing the refinements and creating an updated version of the original VF-1

Yep. Seems we understood the very same thing. Even if it seems I did poorly stating the very same.

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Its performance is low enough that it's not going to seriously test the limits of a trainee's g-force endurance even accidentally.

[about the VF-1] Yep. That also. As said, the VF-1 would be less comfy than a VF-5000 while flying at about the same performance envelope. That would suppose some kind of challenge for a trainee that the VF-5000 wouldn't. Like real world trainer turboprops, deliberately choosing the temperamental ones over the charm to fly ones, to discipline the trainees.

Edited by Aries Turner

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8 hours ago, Aries Turner said:

As Mr. Sketchley pointed out as a translator note, this is an issue of definition: that VFMF does poorly trying to define what is the difference between Pioneer, Border and Emigrant Planets.

Granted, this whole "the VF-1 Valkyrie is still in widespread military service" schtick is mostly Master File swinging for the fences to justify doing a fourth book about the VF-1, so it isn't altogether surprising that their justification is vague and wandering.

 

8 hours ago, Aries Turner said:

That also. As said, the VF-1 would be less comfy than a VF-5000 while flying at about the same performance envelope. That would suppose some kind of challenge for a trainee that the VF-5000 wouldn't. Like real world trainer turboprops, deliberately choosing the temperamental ones over the charm to fly ones, to discipline the trainees.

They've got virtually identical cockpits, so I'm not sure one would necessarily be more comfortable than the other.

Shinsei Industry has had a LOT of time to refine the VF-1's ANGIRAS airframe control AI though, so it's probably about the most stable and forgiving training VF you could ask for.

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

They've got virtually identical cockpits, so I'm not sure one would necessarily be more comfortable than the other. 

Unless we account for the cockpit with Harrier like transformation lever controls of the first VF-1 blocks. That would however be sadism towards trainees.

The point is the VF-1 started with less comfort, even if latest versions include EXGear controls and advanced AI. It could reasonably be made with throttleable difficulty, to simulate flying later VFs, harder on the chest and guts, while still in fact flying at manageable acceleration.

But then again probably someone somewhere made a tailored version of every single model, or even yet unseen ones for the role, thus the adequate VF trainer is mostly a rhetorical question about overthinking an anime, because if a VF-25 can simulate a VF-0 (*), almost any model should be able to simulate the VF-1.

(*) I am not talking about Legend of Zero stand-in, but Macross-R VF-0 lookalike that isn't.

Edited by Aries Turner

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Posted (edited)

Macross Chronicle Revised Ed.—Mechanic: M Zentrādi 02A: Gurāji: http://sdfyodogawa.mywebcommunity.org/MCRmechanic/MCRmechanic.php#SDFM

Complete!

As always, MC is a bit light on details (E.g.: how many missiles are loaded in each of the Gurāji's missile launchers?  Or how many missile launchers are in the  Gurāji's Large Air-battle Booster exactly???) and there is a lot of focus on Kamujin...

Edited by sketchley

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Posted (edited)

I’ve had these low viz water slide decals for some time.  I’m trying to figure out what these squadrons are named.  I found the originals in the Macross Model World Hobby Handbook...

9A9FCEF1-C24A-458D-AB53-D4D735AA4552.png

07E96E44-7562-4EE2-8350-4790B0544181.jpeg

Haven’t found any translations which cover the Hobby Handbook..

Edited by Bolt

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20 minutes ago, Bolt said:

I’ve had these low viz water slide decals for some time.  I’m trying to figure out what these squadrons are named.  I found the originals in the Macross Model World Hobby Handbook...

9A9FCEF1-C24A-458D-AB53-D4D735AA4552.png

The captions read:

  • 1st Squadron S-type Major Roy Focker (the skull and crossbones)
  • 2nd Squadron S-type Major Kabiru Hajadin (the eagle with the big red eye)
  • 1st Squadron A-type Warrant Officer Nguyen Som Dok (the horned skull)
  • 4th Squadron A-type Sergeant Mario Frosini (the demon?)
  • 3rd Squadron A-type Warrant Officer Tagan Kinba (the hornet)
  • 4th Squadron J-type Captain Georg Schmidt (the blue dragon)

They appear to be markings for individual pilots, rather than unit markings.

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Awesome! Ok. Got it. Thanks very much for the quick response :)

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