`By `80s standards...` WTF?

[Lott Sheen]

I`m starting this thread because a comment in the Regult thread reminded me of the kind of comments I always notice on Macross World, the poster said something like, `Of course the regults were out of scale in SDFM, it was a TV show in the `80s!!!`

Seems to me a lot of people on this forum, mainly younger, instantly dismiss `80s productions as being somehow inherently inferior. Its as if some people think that without super high tech computers and the internet around that people back then were dumber or poorer or drew worse just because it was the `80s?... I mean DYRL, Akira and Honneamise all came out in the `80s aswell as some astoundingly creative, well drawn and well directed sequences in TV and video anime.

Perhaps its the aging film stock that tell the age of some of these productions and young people just think `old therefore LAME`? I dont get what it is but even though rational people know that the golden age of the anime most of us prefer (realistic mecha shows) was the `80s people on Macross World seem to constantly knock the `80s? There seems to be an ethos of NEW EQUALS GOOD AND OLD EQUALS BAD with some people. Does anyone else notice this? WTF?

[taksraven]

I`m starting this thread because a comment in the Regult thread reminded me of the kind of comments I always notice on Macross World, the poster said something like, `Of course the regults were out of scale in SDFM, it was a TV show in the `80s!!!`

Seems to me a lot of people on this forum, mainly younger, instantly dismiss `80s productions as being somehow inherently inferior. Its as if some people think that without super high tech computers and the internet around that people back then were dumber or poorer or drew worse just because it was the `80s?... I mean DYRL, Akira and Honneamise all came out in the `80s aswell as some astoundingly creative, well drawn and well directed sequences in TV and video anime.

Perhaps its the aging film stock that tell the age of some of these productions and young people just think `old therefore LAME`? I dont get what it is but even though rational people know that the golden age of the anime most of us prefer (realistic mecha shows) was the `80s people on Macross World seem to constantly knock the `80s? There seems to be an ethos of NEW EQUALS GOOD AND OLD EQUALS BAD with some people. Does anyone else notice this? WTF?

What was wrong with the 70's??

Taksraven

[dreamweaver13]

I`m starting this thread because a comment in the Regult thread reminded me of the kind of comments I always notice on Macross World, the poster said something like, `Of course the regults were out of scale in SDFM, it was a TV show in the `80s!!!`

Seems to me a lot of people on this forum, mainly younger, instantly dismiss `80s productions as being somehow inherently inferior. Its as if some people think that without super high tech computers and the internet around that people back then were dumber or poorer or drew worse just because it was the `80s?... I mean DYRL, Akira and Honneamise all came out in the `80s aswell as some astoundingly creative, well drawn and well directed sequences in TV and video anime.

Perhaps its the aging film stock that tell the age of some of these productions and young people just think `old therefore LAME`? I dont get what it is but even though rational people know that the golden age of the anime most of us prefer (realistic mecha shows) was the `80s people on Macross World seem to constantly knock the `80s? There seems to be an ethos of NEW EQUALS GOOD AND OLD EQUALS BAD with some people. Does anyone else notice this? WTF?

MilSpex, is that you?

[eugimon]

I'm starting to notice a disturbing trend here where when people point out (correctly) something less than effulgent about the 80's, someone immediately blames it on the supposed age of the poster rather than discuss the actual merits of the argument being put forth.

WTF?

[myk]

Why anyone would deride a work based on past technology is pretty narrow-minded. Obviously the content or soul of the works from the past should be the focal point of discussion, not technical or other related aspects that would certainly be inferior by today's standards.

End of thread...

[Dynaman]

Forget the eighties, what about the seventies! There is NO WAY the outside of the Millenium Falcon scales to the inside!

Too be serious though, it is a common phenomonom that continues through today, movies and TV are artistic productions and as such the scale of things shown on screen is fuzzy at best. It is more important that things look "good" rather then be exactly to scale.

[Funkenstein]

The overwhelming majority of anime in the 80s had images like my profile picture, at least once per episode. This is before computer generated cel art was useful in keeping things uniform.

[Lott Sheen]

not technical or other related aspects that would certainly be inferior by today's standards.

Why do you think technical aspects today are superior to the `80s? Cells are still hand drawn today, the quality of the output is simply a function of human creativity plus frame rate plus hard work. Computer techniques may save money today and make the output more consistant but it does not make better animation, it actually makes blander more homogenised animation that is cheap and nasty by comparison to something like Orguss, Zeta Gundam, Votoms, Minky Momo, Layzner, Vifam, Macross etc etc.

I`ll admit that character designs may get outdated or unfashionable but its impossible for hard work and smooth detailed animation to date.

[Seto Kaiba]

Why do you think technical aspects today are superior to the `80s? Cells are still hand drawn today, the quality of the output is simply a function of human creativity plus frame rate plus hard work.

Quality is, was, and always will be more a function of the show's budget than any other factor in the production process. Was the original 1982 Macross series animated somewhat haphazardly? You bet. Are shows today animated just as badly? ABSOLUTELY. I've actually got a graphic somewhere that shows side-by side comparisons between old and new high and low quality/budget productions.

[Dynaman]

Why do you think technical aspects today are superior to the `80s? Cells are still hand drawn today,

Computers are used to do more of the scaling and tweening work today. The most obvious example would be the higher frame rate for mechanical items and the smoother animation that results - even on low budget productions. There are many who do not like the "look" that such techniques come up with, but that is a seperate matter.

[Mr March]

I'm thankful we have many younger fans around to point out the flaws of older anime, even my beloved SDF Macross. They're a nice balance against older fans stuck in 1985, lamenting "back in the day" BS without any relevant perspective on modern entertainment

[Lott Sheen]

Seto, exactly, the amount of hard work on a show is related to budget, and shows in the `80s had more budget than they do today, I`m sure. I think the fluctuations in SDFM`s animation quality is to do with the staff being mostly fresh out of university, ambitious and inexperienced. I`ve read that Itano would blow huge amounts of the budget and time on those certain ridiculously detailed sequences leaving no budget for other scenes. The true magic of the `80s was that TV stations were willing to give people like this budgets in the first place and take chances. I`m speculating based on what I`ve heard about Studio Nue rushing episodes of SDFM to the TV station hours before broadcast but without a bunch of ambitious kids who maybe didn`t all fully understand the business of doing TV anime getting a chance and plenty of creative freedom we would have never known Macross.

btw love the new macross2.net

Edited May 26, 2010 by Lott Sheen

[EXO]

Dude... the you took a simple little comment from the toy section and added context and then took offense... lol.

[sketchley]

without any relevant perspective on modern entertainment

So, what you're saying is that we should ignore things like good storytelling and characterization, and only focus on the visual and spectacle of entertainment? That's cutting out the best parts, my boy.

[Mr March]

Must be an echo in here...

Dude... you took a simple little comment from the toy section and added context and then took offense... lol.

btw love the new macross2.net

Thank you. I'm glad you enjoyed it. Update coming soon, so make sure to visit.

[Ghost Train]

I might be biased since I do remember the 1980's very well, but due to geographic constrains at the time I saw all of the 1970's stuff in the 1980's, and all the awesome 80's stuff in the 90's (except Macross). For instance, I saw Honneamise in '99, and even then I thought that it was a superb work... in fact when CG when first came into the scene, it actually seemed somewhat cheap and low quality to me. But that just proves it's a matter of perception and personal tastes.

Having said that... my opinion of the current generation of "young people", mostly those born in the final years of the 1980's and early 90's who are probably moving out on their own, attending college, and what not, is generally low. This is a generation of people with self induced ADD. These are my observations from working part time as a lab tech while finishing up my masters:

- They go to the library to study, but spend 99% of that time on Facebook.

- They take their laptop to lecture to take notes, but are logged onto WoW.

- They don't like solving problems on their own, since tech support is available.

- They don't take the effort to solve a problem and think critically, because Google is at their fingertips.

- They don't evaluate things for their usefulness, they just own sh!t that Steve Jobs tells them to.

As such, their opinions should be taken with a grain of salt.

Grandpa Simpson, signing off...

Edited May 26, 2010 by Ghost Train

[VF5SS]

As such, their opinions should be taken with a grain of salt.

Grandpa Simpson, signing off...

yeah because everything you just said is unique to your environment and position

kids goofing off in a place that makes goofing off real easy? inconceivable

society is collapsing

[danth]

I know exactly what Lott Sheen is talking about. I see this all the time in anime fandom. My pet peeve is reading a review of some old-school anime that says "the animation is dated." They say this about the most incredibly-animated shows, like Macross:DYRL or Akira. Yeah, dated like a fine wine is dated. I'm sorry, but the most well-animated anime came out in the 80's and early 90's, period. There was really bad animation back then as well, don't get me wrong. But the good stuff was mind-blowingly amazing.

Edited May 26, 2010 by danth

[Ginrai]

When I say things are dated on the podcast I typically mean "contain sideburns and bellbottoms and character design styles no longer popular".

[Einherjar]

It's part of our history, what we have now wouldn't be here if it wasn't for past works.

[danth]

When I say things are dated on the podcast I typically mean "contain sideburns and bellbottoms and character design styles no longer popular".

Yeah, character designs can be dated, even though I hate to admit it. I still think 80's designs are objectively better, dated or not. I just don't think a word with a negative connotation should be used unless the designs are actually ugly.

[Dynaman]

- They don't like solving problems on their own, since tech support is available.

You do realize that is actually a compliment rather then an insult? Needing to use ANY tech support these days is a nightmare...

Seperate note, computer graphics is not just used for CGI (as such). It started being used in the eighties (of all things) in some Disney productions, to help keep the perspective correct when moving the camera. (I forget what movie exactly, the director of Iron Giant was talking about it on the commentary to one of his films)

[Gubaba]

You do realize that is actually a compliment rather then an insult? Needing to use ANY tech support these days is a nightmare...

Seperate note, computer graphics is not just used for CGI (as such). It started being used in the eighties (of all things) in some Disney productions, to help keep the perspective correct when moving the camera. (I forget what movie exactly, the director of Iron Giant was talking about it on the commentary to one of his films)

First time I ever read about using computer for animation assistance was a in helping to make a rocking boat in the Black Cauldron.

Later, of course, there was Lensman...

[Marzan]

I know exactly what Lott Sheen is talking about. I see this all the time in anime fandom. My pet peeve is reading a review of some old-school anime that says "the animation is dated." They say this about the most incredibly-animated shows, like Macross:DYRL or Akira. Yeah, dated like a fine wine is dated. I'm sorry, but the most well-animated anime came out in the 80's and early 90's, period. There was really bad animation back then as well, don't get me wrong. But the good stuff was mind-blowingly amazing.

Personally I think that Macross DYRL still looks as pretty as anything out there.

[Jasonc]

Well, it does seem like the quote from the Regult thread did get taken way out of context. I would've avoided starting a whole new thread about it though. And for the record, when Macross was in production, there was a lot of shortcuts they did, for time sake. Look at the 2nd ep. of SDF:Macross (I think it's 2nd ep.) where the regults just slide down the hill to attack. They didn't want to animate a bunch of pods jumping or running, so they just slid in a static position. The scale issue could've just been part of the rush to get these episodes done. It doesn't seem like the member in question this thread is about was saying anywhere that the artists and people involved were inferior, but maybe intended to mean that a lot of shows that were long series, and in some rush, had some quality aspects traded for funds and time consumption.

You look at 80s cartoon series, then look at some of the feature movies, like DYRL, and you get an idea of what SDF:Macross could easily have been if it wasn't for time and money constraints. I'm a big fan of 80s anime and don't think it's inferior at all. It was a different era though, and the thought processes of getting these to the screen seemed much different than they are today.

[Vifam7]

I know exactly what Lott Sheen is talking about. I see this all the time in anime fandom. My pet peeve is reading a review of some old-school anime that says "the animation is dated." They say this about the most incredibly-animated shows, like Macross:DYRL or Akira. Yeah, dated like a fine wine is dated. I'm sorry, but the most well-animated anime came out in the 80's and early 90's, period. There was really bad animation back then as well, don't get me wrong. But the good stuff was mind-blowingly amazing.

What most fans (particularly young ones) don't understand is what constitutes "good animation". Too many take thin lines and defined or sharp edges as quality animation. That's just paintwork on a computer. There's more to animation than just how "pretty it looks". Camera angles, action sequence, choreography, animation fluidity, attention to detail, etc. - many other factors should be factored in before one opines about "dated animation" as if to signify 'low quality'.

Most of the quality animation titles from the 1980's generally come from theatrical versions and direct-to-video OAVs. The reason why they had such fantastic quality was not only budget but also time. Production of TV anime series were/are particularly very rushed. Those with bigger staff could do more with the alotted time but those with smaller staff had to do more work at a faster pace. I remember hearing stories about how some episodes of Macross TV were being worked on to the last minute and staffers literally running to make the scheduled broadcast.

[Ghost Train]

I totally dig the new "animation" trend set by Bakemonogatari, where you have 10% animation and 90% stills.

[EXO]

I totally dig the new "animation" trend set by Bakemonogatari, where you have 10% animation and 90% stills.

Didn't Eva do that? The only time you see actual animation is during the robot fights. But most of it was just mouths moving.

[reddsun1]

Hah! Everyone knows: Hannah Barbera's original Johnny Quest (1964-65) is the standard by which all others must be measured, in terms of quality and style of animation.

[BeyondTheGrave]

I`m starting this thread because a comment in the Regult thread reminded me of the kind of comments I always notice on Macross World, the poster said something like, `Of course the regults were out of scale in SDFM, it was a TV show in the `80s!!!`

Seems to me a lot of people on this forum, mainly younger, instantly dismiss `80s productions as being somehow inherently inferior. Its as if some people think that without super high tech computers and the internet around that people back then were dumber or poorer or drew worse just because it was the `80s?... I mean DYRL, Akira and Honneamise all came out in the `80s aswell as some astoundingly creative, well drawn and well directed sequences in TV and video anime.

Perhaps its the aging film stock that tell the age of some of these productions and young people just think `old therefore LAME`? I dont get what it is but even though rational people know that the golden age of the anime most of us prefer (realistic mecha shows) was the `80s people on Macross World seem to constantly knock the `80s? There seems to be an ethos of NEW EQUALS GOOD AND OLD EQUALS BAD with some people. Does anyone else notice this? WTF?

Not really. I get the vibe old is the greatest thing ever and anything new should be burned and if you even like the new your an idiot.

(will collect thoughts and post more later)

[RD Blade]

I consider the 80's to be the golden age of animated television shows. Back then there were about 8 channels (for those without cable), therefore bad shows were seldom broadcast.

It was also the time when laws about marketing to children were loosened. Most cartoons had a toy line and toy companies were not shy about advertising relentlessly. The related cartoons were just one part of the advertising campaign. Kids like me were more than happy absorb it all. It was like the perfect storm of unintentional circumstances that made for immensely kid-friendly entertainment.

I tend to reflect on those shows with a fondness that doesn't really fade. I've always seen the flaws in these shows, but more importantly, I've always been drawn by the heart in them. Very few of today's animated shows have that affect on me. It's a bummer because I want Saturday mornings to mean something again.

[anime52k8]

Not really. I get the vibe old is the greatest thing ever and anything new should be burned and if you even like the new your an idiot.

(will collect thoughts and post more later)

well that's because it's true. everything made after 1989 is inherently crap, it's an unequivocal fact. You don't even have to provide any justification to back up this conclusion because everyone KNOWS it's true just because it is.

Everyone except people born in the 90's or later, but clearly they're all completely incompetent and incapable of having ANY form of rational judgment or informed opinion. (fun fact, the collective stupidity of everyone born after 1989 is why the worlds going to end in 2012, sorry about that.)

[eugimon]

So... let me sum up this whole thread here...

"How dare you like something other than what I like!"

[Lott Sheen]

Not really. I get the vibe old is the greatest thing ever and anything new should be burned and if you even like the new your an idiot.

(will collect thoughts and post more later)

No, its not that, it is just a stone cold fact (not being sarcastic like the above poster) that the best time for robot anime that we like WAS the 1980s. The other guy had a point, it was the perfect storm: Gundam had been a hit in 1979 and set up the `80s for copycat shows. What we actually got due to Japans economy peaking at the time and due to a huge appetite for the genre was TV stations taking chances on inexperienced creators doing the SF real robot shows they wanted to do, not what was safe. We ended up getting tons of unique and gritty shows that were made for adults and were really really cool.

Maybe I`m simplifying but the `90s were setup by Evangelion, a mediocre show storywise imo but a huge hit in Japan. Economic stagnation spawned a few even more mediocre imitators, then Moe blew up in the 2000s and paedophiles took over the whole industry, then it was all over...no time since the `80s has been as good, more than a few dodgy rushed episodes of Macross or not. End of story.

Edited May 27, 2010 by Lott Sheen

[Lott Sheen]

So... let me sum up this whole thread here...

"How dare you like something other than what I like!"

No its more like `Anime history 101.`