HG and Robotech Debates

[Jasonc]

R̳͇̱̯O̢̰̭͈̙̠̩̥B̹́O̴̰͈̖T̟͎̙̦̦͚E̖̫͔̖̟̍̽ͥ̍͟ͅC͇̭̫͔̣ͥ͊̓ͦ͋͌H͉̭̩͙̙̿͊̄ͪ͛̅͠,̺͉͇̘̫͙͍͆̈́ ̟̖̪ͣ̀͐̏̄ͩ̀̚I̹̙̙̦̣ͥ̅T̮͑ ̠͓͓͈͎̟̓̽͑ͤ͊̓͗́C̻ͮ͌͋̄̈O͍̣̘͍̮̣̾͆̀ͩͮͪM̨͇̬͚̦̟͎̖̓̍ͣ͑̅E̼̳͌̀̋̿ͩ͠S̞̫̗͉̯͟.̏҉̗.̊̍ͥ̍.͈̩̪̥͕̑̐̎ ̩̙̯͈͗ͩͧ̍

Why does your avatar make me wanna work out? LOL

[taksraven]

Why does your avatar make me wanna work out? LOL

Why does your avatar make me want to go and see a show?

[Jasonc]

Why does your avatar make me want to go and see a show?

Hahaha, good times.

I've been kinda at a loss to understand what all this discussion has been about over the last week. RT fringe feels the need to rejoice that a Japanese girl actually likes Robotech, and the rest of us are more like "WTF???" Is the goal of Yui to make Row boat tech and Macross into one canon show? I keep reading different things, and everytime I read a post of hers, I get a different meaning of what the purpose is. I know some here will say that that's just how it is, but for those that have been conversing in Japanese, do you have a further understanding?

On other news, http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/press-release/2010-09-10/rt25-celebration-reunion-of-robotech-talent While many here aren't RT fans at all, this is actually something to take note of. What's even more fantastic about it, is that HG didn't plan this at all. How sad is that, that the company that put this thing out can't even put a decent gathering and event together. I'm going to this.

[Seto Kaiba]

I've been kinda at a loss to understand what all this discussion has been about over the last week. RT fringe feels the need to rejoice that a Japanese girl actually likes Robotech, and the rest of us are more like "WTF?"

Of course... it's only natural that the members of the Robotech lunatic fringe think it's big news that a Japanese girl professes to like the show. In all seriousness, finding out that there's a batshit crazy or improbably stupid housewife somewhere in Japan who actually knows about Robotech is probably the biggest news for Robotech since 2007. It's a safe bet that the handful of fanatics presiding over what's left of the Robotech fandom will be holding this up as a sign that the live-action movie project Tobey Maguire's been ignoring since at least 2008 is destined to be a colossal international hit fit to shame Star Wars and Star Trek.

Is the goal of Yui to make Row boat tech and Macross into one canon show? I keep reading different things, and everytime I read a post of hers, I get a different meaning of what the purpose is. I know some here will say that that's just how it is, but for those that have been conversing in Japanese, do you have a further understanding?

Eh... as far as I can tell, yui1107 got some bad info somewhere and leaped to the entirely incorrect conclusion that the reason the rest of Macross hasn't been licensed for distribution outside of Japan is because Big West is run by jerks who don't want to work with foreign companies. In one particular post, she went much farther and said that their attitude was like the anti-westerner bigotry of the samurai (or rather, the Tokugawa shogunate) from back when Japan was a closed country under the sakoku policy between 1633 and 1853. It looks like she doesn't know or understand the real reason that Big West is unable to distribute the rest of Macross outside of Japan... Harmony Gold's trademark on the Macross name and logo.

Basically... like many Robotech fans, she knows just enough to make an ass of herself in a public venue, but not nearly enough to actually understand what's really going on.

From one or two of her posts, I also gathered that she's a Southern Cross fan and has an axe to grind with Big West or Harmony Gold about the treatment of that series. It's not clear which company her beef is with, or that she even understands the distinction between the originals and Robotech's amalgam of a story. I would guess, given the substance of her complaint, that she feels that Harmony Gold made a bad call when they rewrote the original Southern Cross and set it on Earth. Her specific complaint seems to be that she feels they should have left the setting as a recently-colonized planet near Earth, not Earth itself, as it would make the universe of the Robotech series feel much bigger.

Now, whether that accurately represents the sum total of her statements... I make no promises. I do believe I have at least got the general thrust of her argument/opinion here.

On other news, http://www.animenews...robotech-talent While many here aren't RT fans at all, this is actually something to take note of. What's even more fantastic about it, is that HG didn't plan this at all. How sad is that, that the company that put this thing out can't even put a decent gathering and event together. I'm going to this.

Yeah... it's a shame, I was actually asked to go to that not too long ago. Couldn't swing it, unfortunately. Looks like it'll be the first, and quite probably the last, decent shindig to celebrate Robotech's 25th Anniversary. I think Zen72 is going there and will be reporting on it, but I dunno... haven't seen him in a while.

[Wanzerfan]

I see Cam Clarke had the good sense to refuse to attend.

[azrael]

Now, whether that accurately represents the sum total of her statements... I make no promises. I do believe I have at least got the general thrust of her argument/opinion here.

She probably never really understood this thread probably due to machine or broken engrish translations and we couldn't understand her cuz of her engrish. It probably would be easier for her (and us) if she just posted in Japanese instead of trying post broken English. Her knowledge also seem to have stemmed from RDF-HQ or RT.com or whatever RT sites are out there.

[Seto Kaiba]

I see Cam Clarke had the good sense to refuse to attend.

'kay... it looks like it's going to fall to me to voice the confusion most of us are probably feeling after your latest nonsensical outburst:

What the hell are you saying?

I realize this'll probably sound like a personal attack, but I really mean what I'm about to say here and I intend no malice in it. Now, what I want you to do is sit down and spend some quality time with your keyboard as you explain to us your view(s) on Macross and Robotech. I'm not exaggerating even a little when I say that we have no idea why you're even here. I mean, from your posts it doesn't really seem like you're a Macross fan... or that you're even remotely interested in Macross. I know you're a fan of the old and much-maligned Robotech comics, but your position on the rest of Robotech and on Harmony Gold is pretty inconsistent, and you say a lot of sh*t that's just plain misinformed. I'm not even sure what to make of this latest remark of yours because you won't remain consistent. So what I want you do to is explain to us what you think of Macross and Robotech... the bits you like, the bits you don't, your opinion of Harmony Gold, etc.

I mean... really. Did you say what you just said because you thought RT25 was a celebration orchestrated by Harmony Gold USA? It's not. Harmony Gold has more or less nothing to do with it, as far as I've heard. It's the brainchild of the few admirable Robotech fans left out there. It's a fan project that shames anything Harmony Gold has done to commemorate the 25th Anniversary of the show. Even as someone who's openly critical of Robotech, I can't help but be impressed by what they've managed to pull off... and frankly I think it's a shame that Cam Clarke isn't going to be there with the rest of his fellow cast-mates. This is possibly the last hurrah for Robotech. That he's not going to attend doesn't mean he refused... he might just have not been able to make it due to other obligations.

She probably never really understood this thread probably due to machine or broken engrish translations and we couldn't understand her cuz of her engrish. It probably would be easier for her (and us) if she just posted in Japanese instead of trying post broken English. Her knowledge also seem to have stemmed from RDF-HQ or RT.com or whatever RT sites are out there.

Entirely possible... though it doesn't look like anyone here is fluent enough in Japanese to successfully explain the complex legal situation to her and have her actually understand it.

[Keith]

Wanzer's a troll, plain & simple. The laws of probability make it incredibly unilke for one human being to post so much wrong content in a single lifetime, which means he's faking it.

[Jasonc]

I see Cam Clarke had the good sense to refuse to attend.

What made you jump to that conclusion? As I have been on the sidelines helping with this thing (non oficially), I do know that that wasn't even close to the case for him. So, saying that, what would make you come with some strange logic as that? Maybe someone should inform you that when you post stuff on the internet, if you're gonna post something as fact, make sure that you actually know that it's fact, and not your opinion. Seriously, your comment shoulda just had a WTF reply.

[anime52k8]

'kay... it looks like it's going to fall to me to voice the confusion most of us are probably feeling after your latest nonsensical outburst:

What the hell are you saying?

I think I should leave this little exchange from another thread here, as it might make things a little clearer:

Finally Welker back as Megatron (if he couldn't do it, I would rather see Simon Templeman than Hugo Weaving do that voice). Too bad they couldn't get ol' Cobra Commander to do Starcream, but I hope Blum is good at the role.

News Flash: Chris Latta died in 1994.

Great, one of the feaking Baldwin bros. is part of the cast as Breakdown no less (check the link above to find out why I bolded the name); There is only one Baldwin I really liked, and that is Daniel (Beau Felton, anyone?).

Adam Baldwin isn't one of the Baldwin brothers.

Now my theory is that Wanzerfan isn't a person at all. He is in fact a semi-sentient beta version of googles new psychic search feature which has found it's way onto the board and now periodically churns out non sequitur responses derived from random words in previous posts.

[Gubaba]

Now my theory is that Wanzerfan isn't a person at all. He is in fact a semi-sentient beta version of googles new psychic search feature which has found it's way onto the board and now periodically churns out non sequitur responses derived from random words in previous posts.

I disagree. I think he's simply a "Factual Error Generator" that someone devised as a joke, but which then gained access to this board and started trolling it.

Edited September 11, 2010 by Gubaba

[Jasonc]

Either way, I've stayed out of the comments regarding his/it's misrepresentation of facts, but there's only so much one can take before it starts grating on you like nails to a chalkboard.

[yui1107]

Yui, Harmony Gold does almost nothing with Robotech. Your Harmony Gold does more. Asking Big West to make a deal with Harmony Gold is like asking them to make a deal with me. Macross Frontier is their business. If they ever need SDF Macross, they could re-animate it if they wanted to.

Harmony Gold at first only had a right to distribute the SDF Macross series and make merchandise based on it outside of Japan. These are the rights that Big West sold to Tatsunoko to get the SDF Macross animation finished. It doesn't include the designs in new animation which Big West still has. Tatsunoko licensed those rights to Harmony Gold.

Then, in 1999, Harmony Gold registered the trademark "Macross" in the United States and got that right on their own, even though they did not create anything for Macross. In the past, they were in the right place in the right time to attract hundreds of skilled people in one place. It was a one time event. Today, they are not very good at creating things on the rare occasion they try to. The things they create are amateurish and substandard. If you've seen Shadow Chronicles, in my opinion you could tell that they are unable to act as proper representatives of Big West. Neither are they a real distribution company like Funimation or Bandai.

I don't know where you got your information about Harmony Gold, but somebody has told you some lies about them to make them look better than they really are. Harmony Gold is a group of real estate agents who go around to anime conventions trying to convince people Robotech is still active. Their Macross DYRL products exist to prove their finding that they also have rights to distribute merchandise based on DYRL.

Maybe you didn't realize calling yourself "Harmony Gold Japan" is like calling yourself "someone who works very slowly in Japan".

Just this once, I'm going to crosspost this here and RDF-HQ so you see it.

She probably never really understood this thread probably due to machine or broken engrish translations and we couldn't understand her cuz of her engrish. It probably would be easier for her (and us) if she just posted in Japanese instead of trying post broken English. Her knowledge also seem to have stemmed from RDF-HQ or RT.com or whatever RT sites are out there.

0kay I write in Japanese!

貴方の発言は理解できます。 ハーモニー・ゴールド社の新作「シャドウ・クロニクル」は確かに「マクロス・フロンティア」に較べて劣っています。

私は、この "ロボテック Blu-lay 劇場版 The Shadow Chronicles Collector's Edition " を、沖縄の米軍基地の友人の家で観ました 。

また、私は、私に幾らかの嘘の情報を与えた男を追及しました。

彼は追求を逃れるために、その場から立ち去りました。

けれども、彼の情報が嘘であったとしても、私は、今の状況を改善したいと思って東京に出てきたのは、私自身の意思です。

私は、Harmony Gold社が、不動産の売上の利益に熱心で、これに較べる"Robotech"には熱意がないのは、わかりました。

不動産業に較べて、熱意のない、HG社に代わって、私は、自分自身の努力で会社を起業し、この状況をなんとかすることを考えています。

この複雑な legal Trademark Conflicts が、私個人の努力ではどうんにもならないことは、わかっています。

私は、マクロス世界と、マクロスシリーズを否定しているのではありません。　私はマクロスもロボテックも同様に評価しています。

何度も言いますが「互いの違い」を理解した上で、２つの企業が「和解」することは、第三者の仲介がない限り無理だと考えてます。

確かに私の熱意は「超時空騎兵（団）　サザンクロス」にあり、これを動機として私は問題提起をしています。

日本のファンは「ロボテックの内容が何であるか」理解していません。

それはその争いや、日本の国のアニメを米国の「カール・メイセックが」、怪しげな韓国（「テッコンＶ」やVF-1Jの稚拙なデザインがメカではなく、ヒーローとして登場する「ガンダムV」）や、中国の「Astro Plan」のように、全く中身のない「まがい物」にしたと「のみ」考えているので、その内容を知ることもありません。

Edited September 11, 2010 by yui1107

[Seto Kaiba]

Now my theory is that Wanzerfan isn't a person at all. He is in fact a semi-sentient beta version of googles new psychic search feature which has found it's way onto the board and now periodically churns out non sequitur responses derived from random words in previous posts.

I disagree. I think he's simply a "Factual Error Generator" that someone devised as a joke, but which then gained access to this board and started trolling it.

Excellent theories, gentlemen... but having actually spoken with the man at a few points in the past, I'm pretty firmly convinced that he's a flesh-and-blood human being or at least a very convincing Mudd-style android. STill, it's a mystery to me how he can manage to be so consistently wrong when he posts. I don't think he's doing it on purpose...

Either way, I've stayed out of the comments regarding his/it's misrepresentation of facts, but there's only so much one can take before it starts grating on you like nails to a chalkboard.

Yeah... no kidding.

[yui1107]

確かにCarl Macek のSlaughter　はひどいです。

でも、「ロボテック」に全く「観るべき点」ない駄作だと言えるのでしょうか？

どのような酷い作品にされていたとしても、その中に「パンドラの箱」から「災い」や「不幸」が飛び出した後に残った「希望」という名前の宝石が残っていたはずです。

そうでなければ　Tobey Maguire　氏が彼の少年時代に「ロボテック」を通してであれ、このような不幸な出会いであっても、原作のマクロスに「興味を持つことすら」なかったでしょう。

米国ではＨＧ社の妨害があるとはいえ、マクロスもロボテックも一応は観ることが出来ます。

マクロス・フロティアについても、熱心なファンは「ファン・サブ」で観ることが出来るでしょう。

それは河森正治氏とサテライトの著作権には不幸な出来事ですが、

[1] 広大な大陸でDVDやBlu-Layの流通に不都合があること

[2] 米国の「商標権」を持つ誰かにの為に、Distributer が法外な「お金」か「小切手」を出さないといけないので、英語を理解する国の人々は、ファンサブという形でしか、マクロス・フロンティアを視聴できない。

この不幸な状況は理解します。

これを変更するには、日本のロボテックの物語の内容や　Secondary continuity titles を全く知らない日本の人々に紹介して、その内容を「フェアな視点」で判断してもらうことが必要となると、私は考えます。

日本の彼等の意見の中には、もちろん「ロボテック」を否定する人々もいます、でも考えてみてください、非公開な作品は評価も出来ません、これは「アン・フェア」ではないのでしょうか？

日本のファンの意見も多く集まれば、「ハーモニー・ゴールド」と「ビッグ・ウエスト」（彼等の会社の登記「ビック・ウエスト」は正しくない和製英語です）」も和解に動かないわけにはいかないでしょう。

日本のファンはTobey Maguire　の　Live　映画が「実はマクロスではない」、「Robotech　Macross　SAGA」であることすら知らない人々が大半です。

これには日本の報道関係者の意図もあるようで、この状況は更なる誤解の起源です。

それは、Just　Invid　と　地球人類の「憎しみの連鎖」（Chain of the hatred）のようです。

そろそろ、この状態を解決して、米国で最新作の日本のマクロスを気兼ねなく観ることが出来るようになりたいとは思いませんか？

私個人だって、ひどい作品かもしれませんが「シャドウ・クロニクル」について、日本人のファンと感想を話し合いたい、でも沖縄はともかく、この東京にすら「シャドウ・クロニクル」

の内容を、「過去の作品の連続性を理解した上」で語り合えるファンの人々は殆どいません。

私はもうすぐ４１歳になります。　カール・メイセックは死亡しましたが、「河森正治」氏も今年５１歳のはずです。

最初のマクロスを少女時代、少年時代に体験した人々は、１０年もしないうちに、お墓に入るかもしれません。

関係者が皆「逝去」（has gone）したならば、この法律問題は、永遠に解決しないでしょう。

ですから、私は「問題提起」をしました。

私に間違った情報を与えた男によって、幾分マクロス・ファンに攻撃的な言い方があったことは認めます。

でもRopponngi の　DYRL　の上映のフィルムは確かに酷かった、それで私が感じたことは理解してください。

長くなるので、今回はこれまでにします。

　

Edited September 11, 2010 by yui1107

[azrael]

貴方の発言は理解できます。 ハーモニー・ゴールド社の新作「シャドウ・クロニクル」は確かに「マクロス・フロンティア」に較べて劣っています。

Yes, we knew that 2 years ago.

また、私は、私に幾らかの嘘の情報を与えた男を追及しました。彼は追求を逃れるために、その場から立ち去りました。

Whom did you speak to and where did you talk to this person?

...私は、Harmony Gold社が、不動産の売上の利益に熱心で、これに較べる"Robotech"には熱意がないのは、わかりました。

As I've stated, Harmony Gold's business also involves third-party licensing of movies and TV shows in foreign countries. "Robotech" is like an active hobby to them.

米国ではＨＧ社の妨害があるとはいえ、マクロスもロボテックも一応は観ることが出来ます。

We can watch both only because they chose to release Macross/「超時空要塞マクロス」. We can watch Macross II/「超時空要塞マクロスII Lovers Again」 and Macross Plus/「マクロスプラス」 legally in the USA because a different company licensed those shows before HG got the "Macross" name trademarked. But we cannot legally watch Macross 7, Macross Zero, or Macross Frontier because a lot of money would be needed to get around HG's trademark and other issues involving licensing.

これを変更するには、日本のロボテックの物語の内容や　Secondary continuity titles を全く知らない日本の人々に紹介して、その内容を「フェアな視点」で判断してもらうことが必要となると、私は考えます。

I'm not sure how or why you would want to introduce Robotech as a "Secondary continuity title" considering that the 3 shows used to produce "Robotech" originally came from Japan. Unless you are referring to using the live-action movie to do it.

日本のファンはTobey Maguire　の　Live　映画が「実はマクロスではない」、「Robotech　Macross　SAGA」であることすら知らない人々が大半です。

これには日本の報道関係者の意図もあるようで、この状況は更なる誤解の起源です。

それは、Just　Invid　と　地球人類の「憎しみの連鎖」（Chain of the hatred）のようです。

Do you remember a movie called "Godzilla", starring Matthew Broderick that premiered in 1998? Do you know how Toho, Inc. felt about how their classic monster was portrayed?

See "Godzilla Final Wars"/「ゴジラ ファイナルウォーズ」 or the clip below:

<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3s5I1zK2RY?fs=1&hl=en_US"></param><param'>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3s5I1zK2RY?fs=1&hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3s5I1zK2RY?fs=1&hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

そろそろ、この状態を解決して、米国で最新作の日本のマクロスを気兼ねなく観ることが出来るようになりたいとは思いませんか？

Tell HG to let go their trademark and then we'll talk.

[Warmaker]

Um... actually, quite a few things have changed over the past few years. It's just that the changes didn't include the disappearance of the legal roadblocks preventing Big West from doing an end-run around Harmony Gold and distributing Macross in the US over their objections.

To me, that still means nothing has changed. I don't know exactly what all has happened since last I dove into a related thread like this, but yeah, the fact that I still can't find official subbed / dubbed Macross stuff in the US means nothing has changed at all. And from what I have seen so far with newer releases / blu-ray releases / etc., BW seems no intention to even put in english subs to their Japanese releases.

So I'm kind of stuck in a rut if I'd like to pay BW money for their shows.

[Seto Kaiba]

[...] the fact that I still can't find official subbed / dubbed Macross stuff in the US means nothing has changed at all.

Okay, yeah... you've got me there. Insofar as the present situation affects the general availability of legitimate Macross goods in the Americas, nothing has changed. The circumstances being what they are, it's unlikely you'll see any changes until such time as Harmony Gold USA either voluntarily surrenders, or is forced to give up, the trademarks they hold on the Macross name and logo in the US. Since they seem determined to hold onto those trademarks as a means of protecting Robotech from having to compete with Macross on a level footing (a death sentence for Robotech), the only time we're going to see legitimate releases of the rest of Macross in the states will be when Harmony Gold either goes out of business or finally produces a Robotech sequel so loathsome and pathetic that they decide to cut their losses and just sell the franchise to whoever wants it.

Just looking at the general lack of forward motion on the proposed Robotech live-action movie and their decision to put Robotech: Shadow Rising on indefinite hiatus while they wait for Warner to unf*ck the Robotech franchise's piss-poor reputation, I would say that the latter case has never looked more realistic.

[Jasonc]

Yes, we knew that 2 years ago.

Whom did you speak to and where did you talk to this person?

As I've stated, Harmony Gold's business also involves third-party licensing of movies and TV shows in foreign countries. "Robotech" is like an active hobby to them.

We can watch both only because they chose to release Macross/「超時空要塞マクロス」. We can watch Macross II/「超時空要塞マクロスII Lovers Again」 and Macross Plus/「マクロスプラス」 legally in the USA because a different company licensed those shows before HG got the "Macross" name trademarked. But we cannot legally watch Macross 7, Macross Zero, or Macross Frontier because a lot of money would be needed to get around HG's trademark and other issues involving licensing.

I'm not sure how or why you would want to introduce Robotech as a "Secondary continuity title" considering that the 3 shows used to produce "Robotech" originally came from Japan. Unless you are referring to using the live-action movie to do it.

Do you remember a movie called "Godzilla", starring Matthew Broderick that premiered in 1998? Do you know how Toho, Inc. felt about how their classic monster was portrayed?

See "Godzilla Final Wars"/「ゴジラ ファイナルウォーズ」 or the clip below:

<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3s5I1zK2RY?fs=1&hl=en_US"></param><param'>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3s5I1zK2RY?fs=1&hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3s5I1zK2RY?fs=1&hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

Tell HG to let go their trademark and then we'll talk.

While Southern Cross and MOSPEADA weren't the biggest hits of their time, why would anyone want to incorporate all that, along with new Macross stuff, into one big mess with no story structure, no sense of main character, and worst off, give it HG, whom already cannot write a decent story to save their lives. To do all that, just for the sake of joining them with no reason (like it'd ever happen anyways) is just a silly idea. Why would you take a superior product like Macross, and then mix it with new, inferior writing styles and product like RTSC, let alone MOSPEADA and Southern Cross. RTSC already messed up MOSPEADA quite a bit with a half assed version of the last 2 episodes, and a weak continuation where the Invid were replaced with a hack job, cut and paste enemy. I can understand people liking both Macross and Robotech, as I do, but I'm not even gonna think about destroying one franchises body (Macross) to save another franchises face (Robotech). They shared original Macross, but after that, there's no connection to the two, and there shouldn't be. Liking both doesn't equal "they have to be joined in one sloppy mess". It'd probably spell the end of both franchises cause it'd suck to no end.

[Wanzerfan]

Yeah, Seto, I thought the Anniversary party was organized by those pricks over at Harmony Gold.

What I like:

Robotech:

• The Leeke/Chen Comico Macross comics
  Robotech II The Malcontent Uprisings comics
  The original episodes of the series (I like Macross Saga the best, The New Generation second, The Masters a close third)
  The plastic models (some of which are from other animes; the Nebo is the Orguss 1)

Macross II Lovers Again

What I hate:

• The new Robotech comic lines from Wildstorm (What those shitheads did with Johnathan Wolff royally pissed me off; He was supposed to be in New Albuquerque, New Mexico during the First Robotech War and in Cavern City in the Venezuela Quadrant during the Malcontent Uprisings; that character is one of the reasons why I love the Malcontent Uprisings comics)
  What I've seen of Macross Plus (dealing with a rogue A.I. instead of an alien invasion?)

What I haven't seen and don't have an opinion of:

• Super Dimensional Fortress Macross using a translation of the original Japanese script I would like to see this; Hopefully ADV will re-release this)
  The other Macross series.

The Robotech novels were entertaining in their own right (sadly it was the only way to get my full Sentinels fix), but The End of the Circle borrowed (stole?) a little too much from Peter Pan for my taste.

[Seto Kaiba]

Yeah, Seto, I thought the Anniversary party was organized by those pricks over at Harmony Gold.

Okay, yeah... that explains a lot.

For the record, that big Robotech 25th Anniversary shindig that's scheduled for the 18th isn't the handiwork of Harmony Gold USA. It's a "by the fans, for the fans" sort of affair, and rather the most impressive of its kind in recent years... particularly considering Robotech's status as a virtual nonentity in the American anime industry.

What I like: [...]

Huh... now there is one esoteric list.

It was pretty much a given that the so-called "original 85" of Robotech would show, since that's still held up as the defining version of Robotech. Most fans don't have any use for the old Comico comics, and the ones I know generally found the old Sentinels stuff that didn't relate directly to the story of the core cast profoundly boring, and treat it as something best left forgotten. There's not a lot of love out there for the Macross II: Lovers Again OVA/movie either... though at least part of that is the profound lack of information on it, and the sad fact that almost all the information out there for it in English is completely incorrect.

What I hate: [...]

Huh... I've said it before, and I'll say it again: this is perhaps the most bizarre complaint about a Robotech story I've ever personally heard. It may just be that I've never understood why Robotech fans seem to want complex backstories for minor, borderline-irrelevant characters who appeared in, at most, one or two episodes. The last time I watched the Robotech series was a good few years ago, but even my somewhat atrophied knowledge of the original Robotech series is raising red flags over your complaint. Jonathan Wolfe, which is the correct way to spell his name, was with the Expeditionary Forces during the Sentinels arc and was sent back to help fight the Robotech Masters... in the reliably canon and pseudocanon parts of Robotech, there is no significant continuity issue in his depiction in the new comics.

Insofar as your complaints about Macross Plus... my suggestion should be obvious: watch the rest of the bloody show before passing judgment on it. Lumping Sharon Apple in with conventional "insane AI" plots really isn't all that accurate... and her motivations are explained in the course of the series/movie.

What I haven't seen and don't have an opinion of:

Super Dimensional Fortress Macross using a translation of the original Japanese script I would like to see this;

Hopefully ADV will re-release this)

The other Macross series.

'kay... that's easy enough to remedy, assuming you're willing to make peace with watching subtitled shows in lieu of the official dubs Harmony Gold is steadfastly preventing anyone from making. You can watch the recent ADV dub of the original Super Dimension Fortress Macross for free here, on Hulu. For the rest of Macross, you'll have to make peace with the idea of watching fansubs, which are readily available for all of the other Macross shows except the most recent movie.

[taksraven]

Of course, by us caring about Wanzerfans epic trollage and the fact he then published a list like the one above, essentially because he has been asked to by people here, Wanzertroll has won.

He now thinks that we are hanging off his every word.

Taksraven

[Robelwell202]

Oh, come on... I'm in favor for Wanzer's continued presence because, quite frankly, he makes my uninformed self look better.

[taksraven]

Oh, come on... I'm in favor for Wanzer's continued presence because, quite frankly, he makes my uninformed self look better.

Oh, don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to say get rid of him, I am just trying to answer questions for those who wonder what the hell he really is doing here, and trolling it is.

Taksraven

[Gubaba]

Of course, by us caring about Wanzerfans epic trollage and the fact he then published a list like the one above, essentially because he has been asked to by people here, Wanzertroll has won.

He now thinks that we are hanging off his every word.

Taksraven

True. I don't really care what he likes and what he doesn't, since his rationales for why something's good or bad are usually asinine...I'd just like to know why he gets everything so WRONG.

But I suspect he can't explain that, since he doesn't seem to realize he's doing it.

[Keith]

True. I don't really care what he likes and what he doesn't, since his rationales for why something's good or bad are usually asinine...I'd just like to know why he gets everything so WRONG.

But I suspect he can't explain that, since he doesn't seem to realize he's doing it.

Mayhaps he's actually from the bizarro universe?

[taksraven]

I'd just like to know why he gets everything so WRONG.

Its just part of the trolling, to provoke a reaction.

Taksraven

[Seto Kaiba]

Okay guys... I have a question.

Y'know, I'd really love to know how you guys managed to consistently behave in such a fashion that I end up as the voice of sanity and tolerance. I'm probably the last person who should be called upon to fill a role like that... especially where Robotech is concerned. After all, I'm probably the person the remnants of the Robotech fandom demonize most. I really hate when you guys put me in this position, because being mild-mannered and tolerant damages the undeserved supervillain-esque "street cred" the Robotech fandom's lunatic fringe is so busy trying to give me.

Really, at this point I have to wonder whose behavior is more questionable... yours or Wanzerfan's. I can't help but remember the last time that sniveling cocksection MEMO showed up here and started running a line of total bullshit about the Macross legal issue, something he clearly knew nothing about. Do you remember what you lot did? When people told him to shut his ignorant ass up, you lot started bleating to us about how we needed to be nice to him despite his proven track record of being a dick. Despite ample proof that he was a douche who didn't deserve the chance, you whined, sniveled and protested in a fashion that would've done Chris Crocker proud and eventually got your way.

Curiously enough, when someone who'd been making an ass of himself in the past showed up and was making a conscious effort to amend his boorish behavior, you were instantly suspicious of every little thing he said and did and point-blank refused to give him a fair chance. Y'know what that is? That's hypocrisy, boys and girls. It's just my opinion, but it's f*cking stupid to give a chance to an unrepentant douche and refuse one to a guy who was showing no signs that he was trying to start trouble, apologized openly for his past behavior, and claimed to be trying to turn over a new leaf.

Tell me, do you remember the funny part of this little reminiscence? In case you've forgotten, let me remind you: You protested that we needed to be tolerant and give MEMO another chance, and he and his friend Maverick immediately proved beyond any shadow of a doubt that they deserved nothing of the sort by acting like twats. On the other hand, I protested on behalf of Pizza the Hutt, who was openly repentant for his past deeds and made an effort to change his behavior... he might've made an off-color joke and lost his posting privileges, but he hasn't let that OR your refusal to give him the same chance you gave MEMO stop him from engaging in civil correspondence with me or let it dampen his enthusiasm for exploring the rest of Macross.

Now... we've arrived at a similar juncture with Wanzerfan. Once again, we have a person who has said quite a lot of stupid and occasionally offensive things... but with no outward sign of malice and no clear agenda, he gets accused of being a troll for what appears to be nothing more than simple case of being opinionated and ignorant. Instead of trying that tolerance and understanding bullsh*t you were preaching at us to show towards MEMO and actually trying to get to the bottom of it, you immediately leap to conclude that his reasons for voicing an opinion for or against something must be asinine or that he has this malicious agenda behind it all. You advocated for MEMO despite the fact that we KNEW beyond any shadow of a doubt that he had a malicious agenda... yet there's no sign of one from Wanzerfan and you'd rather write him off as a malicious troll than try to get to the bottom of it. That makes even less sense than the stuff he comes up with!

Really... the only thing I can conclude from all this is that contrary to what you say about wanting to end all the hostility and judgmental @sshole behavior between Robotech and Macross fans... you're part of the problem. In lieu of acting like twits, why not try talking to the guy and getting to the bottom of it for yourselves?

Y'know what... s'long as I'm telling you off, I might as well go whole f*cking hog and say that I honestly think Pizza the Hutt should be unbanned and given an honest chance to prove that he's not the same venomous f*ckwit we came to know at Robotech.com. He's been nothing but civil, polite, and friendly in the e-mails he and I have exchanged over the past couple of months, and I firmly believe that his interest in Macross is genuine.

Of course, by us caring about Wanzerfans epic trollage and the fact he then published a list like the one above, essentially because he has been asked to by people here, Wanzertroll has won.

He now thinks that we are hanging off his every word.

Oh, don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to say get rid of him, I am just trying to answer questions for those who wonder what the hell he really is doing here, and trolling it is.

True. I don't really care what he likes and what he doesn't, since his rationales for why something's good or bad are usually asinine...I'd just like to know why he gets everything so WRONG.

But I suspect he can't explain that, since he doesn't seem to realize he's doing it.

Edited September 13, 2010 by Seto Kaiba

[Keith]

i never gave any of those dudes a second chance. And for the record, "I" am robotech community enemy #1, there used to be a web page saying so!

[Gubaba]

Oh, chill out, Seto. You're getting worked up over nothing.

[Seto Kaiba]

i never gave any of those dudes a second chance. And for the record, "I" am robotech community enemy #1, there used to be a web page saying so!

Hey now, don't go grabbing all the credit... j_wong and I were commemorated on that page too. I even saved a copy of it for posterity before Geocities went down.

Oh, chill out, Seto. You're getting worked up over nothing.

Oh no, no... you've misunderstood, I'm not getting worked up over this or taking it personally. All I'm doing here is expressing my disappointment at your abject failure to practice what you preach. You talk a big game about how you find the antagonism between Macross and Robotech fans deplorable, but when the time comes to show a bit of that tolerance you become the antagonist instead. That's falling pretty far short of the mark, don't you think? Not every Robotech fan is going to be pleasant, charming, and easy to get along with.

The moral of the story here, for those of you who need Aesop to spell the lesson out for you, is that instead of rushing to call names and level accusations of trolling when someone does something untoward, you ought to try talking to them first to see if it's just good old fashioned human ignorance or if there's genuine malice behind it all... something you've repeatedly failed to do.

In the case of Wanzerfan, there's more than ample evidence to suggest that the only force at work here is good ol' fashioned human ignorance.

Edited September 13, 2010 by Seto Kaiba

[Gubaba]

Seto, whether or not you're personally offended, you're still registering a 10.9 on the Overblown Rhetoric Scale. Tone it down a bit, and THEN we can talk.

[anime52k8]

What I haven't seen and don't have an opinion of:

• Super Dimensional Fortress Macross using a translation of the original Japanese script I would like to see this; Hopefully ADV will re-release this)
  The other Macross series.

Don't watch the ADV dub, it's pure pain. Evenf free on hulu it's not worth it.

Volume 1 for $48 used.

Volume 2 for $22 used.

Volume 3 for $48 used.

Spend the 118 American dollars; man up and read the damn subtitles.

further more, download Macross 7 and Macross frontier and watch them all the way through. If you do you'll be a better, smarter person for it. Alternatively the extreme shock and trauma of it all will leave you either dead or in a vegetative state. Either way things will be better for everyone.

[Seto Kaiba]

Seto, whether or not you're personally offended, you're still registering a 10.9 on the Overblown Rhetoric Scale. Tone it down a bit, and THEN we can talk.

So, you're basically asking me to rephrase my objections to your behavior in such a way that it feels less like I'm telling you off? No, you can just cope with it as-is. Butch up and read it, buttercup.

Don't watch the ADV dub, it's pure pain. Even free on hulu it's not worth it.

Okay... granted, the ADV Films dub of Super Dimension Fortress Macross is probably some of the worst work. It does, however, retain the great virtue of being free via Hulu so he can at least sample it while he's waiting, as the DVDs are backordered or unavailable at most stores.

further more, download Macross 7 and Macross frontier and watch them all the way through. If you do you'll be a better, smarter person for it. Alternatively the extreme shock and trauma of it all will leave you either dead or in a vegetative state. Either way things will be better for everyone.

'kay, if you'd ended this part about two sentences early I would be pointing to you as a good example of how to deal with someone in Wanzerfan's situation. You got off to a good start, but you kind of tripped at the finish line there. Either way, I'll talk to Wanzerfan directly via IM or PM later and get him set up with everything he needs to watch Macross: Do You Remember Love?, Macross 7, Macross Zero, and Macross Frontier.

[anime52k8]

'kay, if you'd ended this part about two sentences early I would be pointing to you as a good example of how to deal with someone in Wanzerfan's situation. You got off to a good start, but you kind of tripped at the finish line there.

I can't help it, I just have to make snide comments whenever possible. it's in my nature.