Robotech and HG License Debates

[kanedaestes]

Same here. It was around my sophomore year of high school when I first watched Mac Plus and Mac II which was about 96, then I searched everywhere for more info and learned about DYRL and Mac 7. Unfortunately it would be years before I saw either of those, but my local blockbuster did have Clash Of the Bionoids which was great at the time until I could get my hands on the one true DYRL.

[Gubaba]

I was talking about what Harmony Gold did to the franchise with the recent comic books. I really dug the Eternity line of comics. When Wildstorm publishing got ahold of the franchise, they basicly made sure those Eternity stories never happened, i.e. removed from cannon. I hate to see a perfectly good story go to waste.

And I was saying that there's no need to go that deep into RT to find a reason why HG should lose the license to RT. The "original" series was bad enough.

Oh, and it's "canon," not "cannon," btw.

Johnathan Wolff was the Robotech character in the New Generation that betrayed humanity to the Invid. He was killed at the end of that particular episode screaming first his family's then Minmei's name. In the Sentinels, he led the Hovertank platoon known as the Wolff Pack (he's the one with the black mustache).

Ah. I haven't seen New Generation since '86 or '87, but I did get around to watching Mospeada last year, so remember him (and yeah, now that i think about it, his name was Jonathan...the "Wolff" threw me off). Why would they have him saying Minmay's name, though? That's weird.

Anyway, I think my underlying point is that I don't really understand why it matters whether he was supposedly on the SDF-1 or at New Albuquerque, which that's just a story made up in order to fit two series together that were never meant to be put together. He's a Mospeada character. The SDF-1 is from Macross. Was Spock on Endor when the second Death Star blew up, or was he still hanging out in the back of the Falcon?

The Malcontent Uprisings comic line really bridged the Macross and Southern Cross storylines nicely.

Do they explain why the technology is completely different...?

[terry the lone wolf]

And I was saying that there's no need to go that deep into RT to find a reason why HG should lose the license to RT. The "original" series was bad enough.

Oh, and it's "canon," not "cannon," btw.

Ah. I haven't seen New Generation since '86 or '87, but I did get around to watching Mospeada last year, so remember him (and yeah, now that i think about it, his name was Jonathan...the "Wolff" threw me off). Why would they have him saying Minmay's name, though? That's weird.

Anyway, I think my underlying point is that I don't really understand why it matters whether he was supposedly on the SDF-1 or at New Albuquerque, which that's just a story made up in order to fit two series together that were never meant to be put together. He's a Mospeada character. The SDF-1 is from Macross. Was Spock on Endor when the second Death Star blew up, or was he still hanging out in the back of the Falcon?

Do they explain why the technology is completely different...?

I remember Johnathan yelling out the names of his deceased wife and son but he did date Minmay during the Sentinels mission.

In the case of the Malcontent Uprisings, it did explain how the RDF (Robotech Defense Force) became the Robotech Expeditionary Force and how the Army of the Southern Cross became the defacto power on Earth.

[Einherjar]

Do they explain why the technology is completely different...?

Apparently, the best way in dealing with increasing Zentradi rebellions caused a switch from more militaristic mecha to space helicopters and hovertanks. Because that's a logical evolution when most of your defense force is sent off world to negotiate with aliens in another part of the galaxy while taking all the best mecha they had.

Johnathan Wolff did have a relationship with Minmai in the Sentinels. Maybe they wanted to make more drama by screwing up the love triangle and chain of command with him on the Macross.

Edited May 9, 2009 by Einherjar

[Gubaba]

I remember Johnathan yelling out the names of his deceased wife and son but he did date Minmay during the Sentinels mission.

In the case of the Malcontent Uprisings, it did explain how the RDF (Robotech Defense Force) became the Robotech Expeditionary Force and how the Army of the Southern Cross became the defacto power on Earth.

I think you're missing my point.

[areaseven]

Wow...here's something you don't see everyday on RT.com: an honest RT.fan. This conversation is focused on the major recall Toynami made on their MPC Maia Shadow Fighter:

Q: "What will happen to the MPCs once they're returned?"

A: "Repackaged as Volume 2's.

"I worked in a factory. True story!"

Q: "Are you serious? I figure they'd just destroy the defective MPCs and start over from scratch."

A: "Well granted, the factory I was at made plastic buckets and lids, but it was common practice to repackage defective returns, slap a new date on them, and ship em to someone else.

"The MPCs I reckon will be disassembled and put back together out of salvageable parts. They'll never admit to it, but that's what goes on behind closed factory doors."

[terry the lone wolf]

I think you're missing my point.

I understand your point about the Macross mecha being different than the Southern Cross ones. Maybe it was the conceit of Macek and his crew that people wouldn't notice that but at the time he was right. In Malcontent Uprisings both Macross Valkyries and Southern Cross Spartas were used so the story wasn't about the transition of vehicles but the transition of power.

[Seto Kaiba]

Do they explain why the technology is completely different...?

No, they never make any attempt to explain why the military completely changes uniforms, mecha, and technology every ten years or so. It's part of why the transition between sagas in Robotech occurs with an almost audible clunk.

I understand your point about the Macross mecha being different than the Southern Cross ones. Maybe it was the conceit of Macek and his crew that people wouldn't notice that but at the time he was right. In Malcontent Uprisings both Macross Valkyries and Southern Cross Spartas were used so the story wasn't about the transition of vehicles but the transition of power.

Yeah, but those are comics... poorly written, and often crudely drawn, attempts to bridge the gaps between the various sagas and add (often unnecessary and uninteresting) side stories to broaden the continuity. Fortunately, the whole confused mess done before 2002 has been thrown out. All the same, the comics by Eternity/Malibu, Academy, and Antarctic are more than enough to justify them losing the licenses to Macross, Southern Cross, and Mospeada in my book... those, coupled with disasters like Robotech II: the Sentinels and Robotech 3000, are proof beyond any shadow of a doubt that Harmony Gold doesn't have a goddamn clue what they're doing with Robotech.

Edited May 9, 2009 by Seto Kaiba

[Wanzerfan]

They were actually never going to be connected together. The toys from Robotech were just rereleased with the ExoSquad name because they looked similar ENOUGH to fit in, but it was never going to go beyond toys.

I know where you're coming from, since I assumed they were going to connect the shows, and the new aliens who showed up at the end of season 2 would be Robotech-related.

I read an interview with writers from ExoSquad not too long ago and they confirmed that these aliens were to be completely new. They were never going to have a connection to Robotech whatsoever.

Harmony Gold's activity was minimal, if any at all, just dealing with the toys, which might in reality have been all Matchbox and not Harmony Gold at all.

Matchbox never had the rights to the Robotech Exo-Squad toys. Playmates was the company that had the rights to produce the toys.

That sucks.

Minorly off topic: I wonder why Universal Cartoon Studios weren't able to produce season 3? That season wouldve guaranteed to kick ass, as well as close some major plot holes. Oh well, here's hoping for an OVA release (most likely when hell freezes over).

[Gubaba]

I understand your point about the Macross mecha being different than the Southern Cross ones. Maybe it was the conceit of Macek and his crew that people wouldn't notice that but at the time he was right. In Malcontent Uprisings both Macross Valkyries and Southern Cross Spartas were used so the story wasn't about the transition of vehicles but the transition of power.

I think you're still missing my point. Putting an X-Wing fighter and someone in a Jedi robe together with the Enterprise and someone in a Starfleet uniform doesn't make them automatically harmonize. HG can authorize al the high-level fanfics they want, it won't make the Robotech "generations" fit together.

No, they never make any attempt to explain why the military completely changes uniforms, mecha, and technology every ten years or so. It's part of why the transition between sagas in Robotech occurs with an almost audible clunk.

There. THAT'S my point!

[Einherjar]

They should have blamed the era changes to all kinds of corruption. It's the only way people like T. R. Edwards and Rolf Emerson could ever gain the power and influence they had. Plus, it would also mean Kyle Linn was right all along about the military.

[Jasonc]

Here is an interesting question. How did people here first find out about the true nature of Robotech, and the fact that it was made up of three unrelated series?

When Robotech first aired back in March 85, I had a friend from Japan in the same elementary school as I. He explained to me what Robotech was, and I actually got to see SDF:M way back when during the airing of Robotech. When Robotech branched off into Southern Cross, it was a bit jarring for me, but, since it was in English, at least I could understand what was going on. Robotech was great for its time, and like many have said, redubbing and doing the crop shop work of anime was acceptable back then. It's really a shame that they haven't become their own yet, after 20-some-odd years. Still cropping the original art, and jacking the fresh ideas of people who had them over 20 years ago, and trying to make it fresh. No bueno.

[Bri]

Here is an interesting question. How did people here first find out about the true nature of Robotech, and the fact that it was made up of three unrelated series?

[...]

Must have been from one of the early Anime UK magazines so around 1991-1992.

At the time I had lost interest in RT and Sentinels killed my remaining sympathy. My interest in Macross came back when I saw Macross II and DYRL. Took me a while to find out that MII was an alternate reality, but they saved Macross for me.

As for the swithes between generations for RT, it's not like you can explain it easily if all you can do is cut and paste and play with narative. Besides kids accept a lot without question anyway, and they were the main audience for RT.

[Wanzerfan]

At the time I had lost interest in RT and Sentinels killed my remaining sympathy. My interest in Macross came back when I saw Macross II and DYRL. Took me a while to find out that MII was an alternate reality, but they saved Macross for me.

That's according to Kawamori (to believe he can create something with his head planted so far up his ass is beyond me). Since Macross II: Lovers Again was produced before the other newer Macross series, it is considered canon by most Macross fans (at least as far as Seto Kaiba is concerned).

Edited May 10, 2009 by Wanzerfan

[Seto Kaiba]

They should have blamed the era changes to all kinds of corruption. It's the only way people like T. R. Edwards and Rolf Emerson could ever gain the power and influence they had. Plus, it would also mean Kyle Linn was right all along about the military.

That's what Tommy Yune tried to do with the continuity reboot comics... he made Leonard, Edwards, and a few others into corrupt, power-hungry, and often treasonous fellows to explain why they worked so hard to gain power...

That's according to Kawamori (to believe he can create something with his head planted so far up his ass is beyond me). Since Macross II: Lovers Again was produced before the other newer Macross series, it is considered canon by most Macross fans (at least as far as Seto Kaiba is concerned).

Nah... I consider the popularity of Macross 7 proof that most of humanity has gone what is medically known as snoop-the-loopy... I consider Macross II: Lovers Again to be the last true Macross sequel, and everything produced after Macross Plus to be Kawamori's attempt to prove P.T. Barnum right... "Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public".

Oddly, looking at Robotech sequels... I think Harmony Gold's decision to toss Carl Macek out on his ear and bring in Tommy Yune was actually the best judgement call they ever made. I get the feeling Macek hero-worshipped Gene Roddenberry, because he was trying his hardest to turn Robotech into Star Trek with Robotech II: the Sentinels and Robotech III: the Odyssey.

Edited May 10, 2009 by Seto Kaiba

[Gubaba]

That's according to Kawamori (to believe he can create something with his head planted so far up his ass is beyond me). Since Macross II: Lovers Again was produced before the other newer Macross series, it is considered canon by most Macross fans (at least as far as Seto Kaiba is concerned).

Ah. So most of the people at Macrossworld aren't Macross fans, and the guy who created Macross has his head up his ass. Gotcha.

Nah... I consider the popularity of Macross 7 proof that most of humanity has gone what is medically known as snoop-the-loopy... I consider Macross II: Lovers Again to be the last true Macross sequel, and everything produced after Macross Plus to be Kawamori's attempt to prove P.T. Barnum right... "Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public".

What is this, Revenge of the RT.com Refugees...?

[Einherjar]

Oddly, looking at Robotech sequels... I think Harmony Gold's decision to toss Carl Macek out on his ear and bring in Tommy Yune was actually the best judgement call they ever made. I get the feeling Macek hero-worshipped Gene Roddenberry, because he was trying his hardest to turn Robotech into Star Trek with Robotech II: the Sentinels and Robotech III: the Odyssey.

Yeah, but who knows where the hell Tommy Yune has brought Robotech now. It's like the franchise is right back at square one with only series pilots moving towards something(?) being released. And then with the LAMR, a blatent retcon, so it's hard to tell if Robotech even has a past, present or future now.

[Bri]

That's according to Kawamori (to believe he can create something with his head planted so far up his ass is beyond me). Since Macross II: Lovers Again was produced before the other newer Macross series, it is considered canon by most Macross fans (at least as far as Seto Kaiba is concerned).

Nah... I consider the popularity of Macross 7 proof that most of humanity has gone what is medically known as snoop-the-loopy... I consider Macross II: Lovers Again to be the last true Macross sequel, and everything produced after Macross Plus to be Kawamori's attempt to prove P.T. Barnum right... "Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public".

Macross II can be called alternate universe as it's history differs from later sequels so there are two separate Macross time lines. Which timeline one prefers and whether that can be called canon or not is to much of a fanboy argument for me to care about. Only thing that matters here is that it's events do not inpact later sequels and vice versa.

Seto's remarks just show that tastes differ. Personally I find Macross Plus the least enjoyable of all Macross sequels as it's characters are distinctly un-Macross in behaviour and personality (and I'm not a fan of the character design style used either). Ironically it was Macross7 that drew me into the Kawamori/Nue continuity. The focus on characters over mecha, the music, the Mikimoto designs it just fullfills what I enjoy in Macross. To quote a clown: "Why so serious?" I guess Mr Barnum worries are unfounded, as the average intelligence of the American public can't in such a bad shape after all, if it's anywhere near mine

[Xeros]

Ah. So most of the people at Macrossworld aren't Macross fans, and the guy who created Macross has his head up his ass. Gotcha.

What is this, Revenge of the RT.com Refugees...?

Nah, they just come back to the light xD

[Einherjar]

Seto's remarks just show that tastes differ. Personally I find Macross Plus the least enjoyable of all Macross sequels as it's characters are distinctly un-Macross in behaviour and personality (and I'm not a fan of the character design style used either). Ironically it was Macross7 that drew me into the Kawamori/Nue continuity. The focus on characters over mecha, the music, the Mikimoto designs it just fullfills what I enjoy in Macross. To quote a clown: "Why so serious?" I guess Mr Barnum worries are unfounded, as the average intelligence of the American public can't in such a bad shape after all, if it's anywhere near mine

Agreed, remember that Macross was supposed to be a lighter parody to Gundam but then matured while Robotech became a patriotic parody to Macross. Macek lied because he could back in the 80s, and kids ran with it.

[VF5SS]

Much to Seto Kaiba's chagrin, probably the reason why Macross has stuck around for so long is because they didn't continue down the Macross II path. Other than the fact it clearly petered out towards the end, the fact is the era of the Yamato/Gundam style Space Opera was coming to a close. Roger and I have tried to pin down the exact show and we think it probably went out with the end of Legend of the Galactic Heroes or Nadesico (which really is a send up of the whole genre). Much like the pop music that plays a major role in the series, the show plays up to the feeling of the times. Plus feels like a 90's OVA while Frontier feels like a 00's show. Which is Robotech's biggest problem is that there's so little progress in the franchise so it is forever stuck in the 80's. Their latest endeavor was them trying to recapture the feeling of a dead genre without any of the talent do so.

Also I found this interesting tidbit from anime ubernerd Steve Harrison. I'm not sure how true it is, but it sounds like that "audible clunk" in Robotech was bad for business.

Actually, funny story on Captain Harlock and the Queen of the Thousand Years...

From Macek's own lips.

When he got tasked to produce CH&blah blah there was HUGE feedback from the stations in r.e. Robotech, they HATED the structure of the production.

What I call the 'Robotech Effect' became very quickly obvious when it came to viewership and ratings. On the first run Robotech did well for the entire show, but on each re-broadcast the viewership PLUMMETED once the 'Macross' arc ended. This was a bad thing. So the mandate from the stations, the conditions that they would take the Harlock show was "don't pull that Robotech B.S. on us! WE want a full 65 of Harlock!"

And so, the chop and paste job.

Now regardless of your feelings on Southern Cross as a show unto itself, think of how much Macek and Co set it up to be the failure. The made their own bleedin' clip show of all the Max and Millia moments and stuck it next to scenes of a young woman who is supposed to be their daughter. Basically the audience's first introduction to Southern Cross is the Robotech writers crying, "Remember those awesome characters you used to watch? We so wish we still had them. But hey, here's their daughter! She's going to be cool just like them! You can tell because we've edited clips of them being cool around her being annoying to some black kid! By the way, that black kid is related to that black chick so he's awesome too right?" They seriously hacked that show so badly and you know what's the ironic thing? All that hacking is where most of Robotech's story resides. All the altered stuff in Mospeada and Macross amounts to nothing but throwaway lines. Mospeada and Macross still get to take place on Earth, the characters are largely the same, and the stories came out relatively intact. Southern Cross gets chunks taken out of it, characters wholly rewritten into bizarre off-screen demigods, and it doesn't even get enough respect to unfold on the same alien planet as it originally did. Yet within all those changes are the foundations of Robotech like Zor, flowers of life, and other weird crap. So in essence the show that is most important to Robotech is the one the fans hate the most.

And that's so deliciously ironic.

Edited May 10, 2009 by VF5SS

[Seto Kaiba]

What is this, Revenge of the RT.com Refugees...?

Wanz has this really bad habit of quoting things he half-remembers me saying... I just stepped in to offer my genuine thoughts on the subject... (yes, I don't care for Macross 7, and I find Macross Frontier only so-so... Macross II was the last one in the storytelling tradition of the original... after that it went to some new and not necessarily good places)

Yeah, but who knows where the hell Tommy Yune has brought Robotech now. It's like the franchise is right back at square one with only series pilots moving towards something(?) being released. And then with the LAMR, a blatent retcon, so it's hard to tell if Robotech even has a past, present or future now.

Considering the horrid mess that was Carl Macek's vision for Robotech's future, is that necessarily a bad thing? If there's one thing the damn near continuous failure of Robotech title after Robotech title on every media format illustrated, it's that Robotech fans have a crippling fear of new and original ideas. They want the same tired, boring, predictable stuff with familiar characters and stories. Think of it not as a sci-fi or action series, but as a giant robot soap opera...

Agreed, remember that Macross was supposed to be a lighter parody to Gundam but then matured while Robotech became a patriotic parody to Macross. Macek lied because he could back in the 80s, and kids ran with it.

What I can't get is why Carl Macek continually acted as though Robotech was his story... even in his interviews he acted like the whole thing was his opus, instead of just a rewrite. He had to know anybody with a brain would figure out it wasn't his writing...

Which is Robotech's biggest problem is that there's so little progress in the franchise so it is forever stuck in the 80's. Their latest endeavor was them trying to recapture the feeling of a dead genre without any of the talent do so.

I tried to explain that to Tommy Yune once... he didn't get it. Robotech's creators don't feel safe when they have to come up with a story and characters and setting all their own, for them it's much more comfortable to write a big, convoluted fanfic using somebody else's characters, mecha, and overall plot. In this case, Genesis Climber Mospeada.

All that hacking is where most of Robotech's story resides

[...]

Southern Cross gets chunks taken out of it, characters wholly rewritten into bizarre off-screen demigods, and it doesn't even get enough respect to unfold on the same alien planet as it originally did. Yet within all those changes are the foundations of Robotech like Zor, flowers of life, and other weird crap. So in essence the show that is most important to Robotech is the one the fans hate the most.

And that's so deliciously ironic.

Yeah, there is a lot of irony in that... though it doesn't really stop there...

Not only is the "Masters Saga" the most reviled of the original three sagas, but the other story that's integral to the ongoing plot (Robotech II: the Sentinels) is a close runner-up in terms of the fans least-favorite saga... and everything in Shadow Chronicles hinges on it. Even the new alien race debuted in Sentinels. Yet the fans usually answer please for more information about Sentinels with "to hell with that poo!".

[Gubaba]

Wanz has this really bad habit of quoting things he half-remembers me saying... I just stepped in to offer my genuine thoughts on the subject... (yes, I don't care for Macross 7, and I find Macross Frontier only so-so... Macross II was the last one in the storytelling tradition of the original... after that it went to some new and not necessarily good places)

Phrased that way, it sounds perfectly reasonable...I'll guess I'll just chalk the P.T. Barnum quotation (and the implication that people who like 7, Zero, and Frontier are not as smart as people who like II) up to your "colorful way of expressing yourself."

What I can't get is why Carl Macek continually acted as though Robotech was his story... even in his interviews he acted like the whole thing was his opus, instead of just a rewrite. He had to know anybody with a brain would figure out it wasn't his writing...

I find that strange, too...and if you look at the interview with him on his website, he makes it clear that he DELIBERATELY made Minmay annoying and unlikable. He also says that he changed Macross for the better, and, well...let me let the man speak for himself:

From the "Robotech Interviews" at www.carlmacek.com:

kurtkr asks: Was it your intention for the Minmei character to be so annoying or did it just turn out that way?

Carl Macek says: It was always my belief that Minmei's immediate popularity onboard the SDF-1 was a bitter pill to swallow. Therefore, if her "talent" was marginal - but her "spirit" was high - it could show that even misguided personalities like "Minmei" could have a positive effect on people and dramatic situations. Melodrama is made up by extremes - and Robotech was played as melodrama - remember these characters are archetypes.

and

Carl Macek says: First the storyline of Macross has major flaws, primarily the concept of "music" as a weapon to be used against the alien invaders - these flaws have been addressed in the subsequent exploitation of the Macross franchise in Japan - in fact it seems that these new variations on Macross seem to be influenced more by Robotech than by an outgrowth of the Macross plot. That said, the goal of Robotech was to create an original program that could be sold to a worldwide audience. It was done to expose the animation and the property to a viewership that is not pre-disposed to the original material. More people were exposed to the animation as Robotech that could every have been exposed to it through the individual series.

I've never been part of the "death to Macek" crowd...he had to bring all this over, with lots of restrictions and limitations placed on him. I don't think he did a great job, but it was better than, say, "Battle of the Planets."

But after reading that...Man! What an ego!

And what Macross series is he talking about where music wasn't used as a weapon? I can't think of a single one. Well, except Macross Generation. But that doesn't really count.

[Xeros]

[...]

But after reading that...Man! What an ego!

And what Macross series is he talking about where music wasn't used as a weapon? I can't think of a single one. Well, except Macross Generation. But that doesn't really count.

This guy doesn't even deserve a pyre...

BRING THE GUILLOTINE...

[azrael]

As I've said, the best solution to RT is to do a reboot of the franchise. They can avoid license issues with Macross and they can take it in whatever direction they want. They can throw out Minmei and the whole music-stuff they don't like do whatever they want. They need to do a Star Trek-reboot if they want to keep this thing going.

[Gubaba]

As I've said, the best solution to RT is to do a reboot of the franchise. They can avoid license issues with Macross and they can take it in whatever direction they want. They can throw out Minmei and the whole music-stuff they don't like do whatever they want. They need to do a Star Trek-reboot if they want to keep this thing going.

There's a problem with that, though...

The original Star Trek can be summed up in a few key terms: Kirk/Spock/McCoy. Enterprise. Journey through space. Peaceful solutions.

As long as any reboot has these elements, it is recognizably Star Trek. Nearly every person in the western world will know these characters and tropes.

What does Robotech have that is familiar? SDF-1. Veritechs. Rick/Lisa/Minmei. Minmei's awful singing. Max/Miriya (and their annoying daughter). Cyclones. Maybe hovertanks. Protoculture. Bad guys who turn out not to be so bad.

Most people who distantly remember RT will remember these things. If a reboot doesn't have most of those, what will it have to jog the memories of people who saw the show 25 years ago, and only vaguely remember it? Or people who have heard about it but never seen it?

Without Macross, RT has no foundation. They can try to build a new foundation, but they risk losing the people who AREN'T die-hard fans, but saw the show as kids. And saddled with a name like "Robotech," which these days sounds almost like a parody, they won't be bringing in many new fans (unless the trailers look absolutely breathtaking).

I tell ya, the people in charge at HG (and the Warners people attached to the film) really have their work cut out for them.

[Seto Kaiba]

But after reading that...Man! What an ego!

And what Macross series is he talking about where music wasn't used as a weapon? I can't think of a single one. Well, except Macross Generation. But that doesn't really count.

He's living in his own little world... he has been since day 1.

It's a strange world, populated by all the major fictional creatures... leprechauns... fairies... unicorns... people who liked Robotech 3000... he likes to think that he actually had an influence on Macross, and like Kevin McKeever so often claims, thinks his hackjob rewrite with lousy synth-pop music was a dramatic improvement on the original.

He is, of course, completely wrong.

As I've said, the best solution to RT is to do a reboot of the franchise. They can avoid license issues with Macross and they can take it in whatever direction they want. They can throw out Minmei and the whole music-stuff they don't like do whatever they want. They need to do a Star Trek-reboot if they want to keep this thing going.

As I've illustrated many times before, Harmony Gold doesn't want to do that because tie-ins with the original series are literally all that's keeping the franchise intact. Finding out what had happened to Rick Hunter and the SDF-3 was far and away the most popular reason why people bought Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles. Every time Harmony Gold has tried to move away from the original three sagas, the fanbase has crucified them for it. That's why the new "Shadow saga" is just a continuation of the "New Generation".

History offers us several damning pieces of evidence that make it painfully obvious that the men in charge of Robotech can't write good original material. Their one brave stab at telling their own story (Robotech 3000) was so poorly received that it never made it past the production of the teaser trailer. All that has changed between the original creative staff and the current creative staff is the title of the sci-fi series they're trying to imitate... Carl Macek and company wanted Robotech to be Star Trek. Tommy Yune and company want Robotech to be Battlestar Galactica.

[taksraven]

I've never been part of the "death to Macek" crowd...he had to bring all this over, with lots of restrictions and limitations placed on him. I don't think he did a great job, but it was better than, say, "Battle of the Planets."

I still think that the dub on Star Blazers was superior to Robotech and BOTP. BUT there were a few good things about the BOTP dub. The voice cast was fantastic and the introduction of Hoyt Curtins music to complement (not replace) the original Japanese soundtrack was brilliant.

Taksraven

[taksraven]

Without Macross, RT has no foundation. They can try to build a new foundation, but they risk losing the people who AREN'T die-hard fans, but saw the show as kids. And saddled with a name like "Robotech," which these days sounds almost like a parody, they won't be bringing in many new fans (unless the trailers look absolutely breathtaking).

I tell ya, the people in charge at HG (and the Warners people attached to the film) really have their work cut out for them.

That was the biggest problem I had with the first Transformers film. I was sitting there thinking "There is a little bit of stuff here that I recognise, but NOT MUCH."

Taksraven

[taksraven]

Carl Macek and company wanted Robotech to be Star Trek. Tommy Yune and company want Robotech to be Battlestar Galactica.

C'mon, get it right and think like a true capitalist. All that Carl Macek and Tommy Yune want Robotech to really be is:

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Taksraven

[Gubaba]

I still think that the dub on Star Blazers was superior to Robotech and BOTP. BUT there were a few good things about the BOTP dub. The voice cast was fantastic and the introduction of Hoyt Curtins music to complement (not replace) the original Japanese soundtrack was brilliant.

Taksraven

It's not really the voice acting that was the problem (although I'm not sure how you can defend Casey Kasem as Mark and whoever did that annoying "Brr-BLIP-BLIP" voice for Keyop)...it was the fact that that they hacked it up to set it in space, and cut out so much that they had to add 7-Zark-7 to fill in the rest of the time. For a while, Rhino was coming out with DVDs with BOTP, G-Force, and Gatchaman all together. G-Force was not a bad adaptation (pity about the characters' names, though), but BOTP was like a totally different show.

[Einherjar]

C'mon, get it right and think like a true capitalist. All that Carl Macek and Tommy Yune want Robotech to really be is:

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Taksraven

(Edited because the entire quote was too long. You can put that many "$'s" on one line?)

I'll admit with Carl Macek the strategy worked. Him and his vision worked because of his audience's ignorance about anime or Macross back in the day, which he used to his advantage. Like I said, when the whole thing became popular, he could say whatever he wanted about Robotech/Macross because HG dealt with Tatsunoko and they were fine with it. Also, since anyone who would have a problem were in another country, no one who could get him into trouble. Although, there must have been awkward times whenever people asked about specific stuff about the series. For example, did he take credit for making the Veritech, conceptualizing it, and getting someone to animate it?

However, it doesn't seem like a strategy that could last a long period of time. Probably the best thing to do after a stunt like this is to walk away with the money. If not, then they would have to invest money to get new stuff done. Instead, he or HG thought it would be a good idea to milk it as much as they could. In the end though, these people had no business in making animation, only buying and repackaging them, and look where it led them. That's greed for you.

Despite walking in his footsteps, Tommy Yune can't follow the same strategy and expect similar results. The Internet makes it harder to keep secrets like Macek did and the anime world has changed significantly. You can't adapt another series into it because people here will immediately know. In fact, the revelation from the original series continues to be a huge blow to the integrity of the franchise since then. The only way Robotech and HG are going to get out of this if, *gasp* they spend money to actually do some honest work.

Oh the humanity! [/faint]

[taksraven]

It's not really the voice acting that was the problem (although I'm not sure how you can defend Casey Kasem as Mark and whoever did that annoying "Brr-BLIP-BLIP" voice for Keyop)...

I loved Casey as Mark. It was good that Mark contrasted so much with Jason because in the original Gatchaman their voices are too similar. The legendary Alan Young did the voice of Keyop and yeah, that was pretty mangled. The Gatchaman voice for Jinpei was much funnier.

it was the fact that that they hacked it up to set it in space, and cut out so much that they had to add 7-Zark-7 to fill in the rest of the time. For a while, Rhino was coming out with DVDs with BOTP, G-Force, and Gatchaman all together. G-Force was not a bad adaptation (pity about the characters' names, though), but BOTP was like a totally different show.

Oh, don't worry, I am *well* aware of the overall faults with BOTP and the bastardisation that took place, but Sandy Frank did improve a few things.

(If anybody is interested in the BOTP soundtrack, PM me.)

Taksraven

[Gubaba]

(Edited because the entire quote was too long. You can put that many "$'s" on one line?)

I'll admit with Carl Macek the strategy worked. Him and his vision worked because of his audience's ignorance about anime or Macross back in the day, which he used to his advantage. Like I said, when the whole thing became popular, he could say whatever he wanted about Robotech/Macross because HG dealt with Tatsunoko and they were fine with it. Also, since anyone who would have a problem were in another country, no one who could get him into trouble. Although, there must have been awkward times whenever people asked about specific stuff about the series. For example, did he take credit for making the Veritech, conceptualizing it, and getting someone to animate it?

Let's be fair...Carl Macek has never said he created Macross. He just said he improved it. And made Minmay annoying.

However, it doesn't seem like a strategy that could last a long period of time. Probably the best thing to do after a stunt like this is to walk away with the money. If not, then they would have to invest money to get new stuff done. Instead, he or HG thought it would be a good idea to milk it as much as they could. In the end though, these people had no business in making animation, only buying and repackaging them, and look where it led them. That's greed for you.

Despite walking in his footsteps, Tommy Yune can't follow the same strategy and expect similar results. The Internet makes it harder to keep secrets like Macek did and the anime world has changed significantly. You can't adapt another series into it because people here will immediately know. In fact, the revelation from the original series continues to be a huge blow to the integrity of the franchise since then. The only way Robotech and HG are going to get out of this if, *gasp* they spend money to actually do some honest work.

Oh the humanity! [/faint]

Here, I agree with you.

But the problem (as I see it) is that, as Azrael said, a reboot is probably the only way they can really keep it going...but who really wants a reboot? Not the old fans, that's for sure. And people who could conceivably become RT fans have a lot more options now.

In '85, when RT was airing, I already knew it was Macross, and that Southern Cross and Mospeada were unrelated. I really wanted to see the original shows, uncut, unchanged, and in Japanese. But I watched Robotech, because I had no choice (apart from a video tape filled with random anime that I copied from one of my friends...it had Episode 31 of Macross on it). There was no way to get Macross, in the US or in Japan, unless you had taped it off of Japanese TV. Plus, i couldn't understand any Japanese. So I watched Robotech. I watched Macron 1. Hell, I even watched Gladidores del Espacio, even though I knew very little Spanish.

But now, DVDs of TONS of series are available, and if that's not enough for them, there's always the internet. Robotech is no longer the only game in town, and it hasn't been for long, long time. Most people who like it do so out of nostalgia, or because it was what they saw first, or because they liked the direction it took post-Macross.

Maybe the DVDs sparked new interest. maybe Shadow Chronicles did as well...but I can't imagine it that it turned out to be many people. Although there are a number of different RT forums, it really does seem like the same five or six people frequent all of them, and just have the same conversations in different settings.

[EXO]

Plus, can you really just collect Robotech toys? Are there people that just buys Toynami stuff or even just the SDF macross stuff and never venture into DYRL? I'm sure there are some that just by three valks but are there completists that just stay on the Robotech side? I can see Macross people staying away from Robotech toys or even Mac+ or MacSeven toys, they may buy Mospeada stuff but I can't see people that just stays on the Robotech fence. Well unless your last name rhymes Yoon or Schmakmeever...