Robotech and HG License Debates

[Duke Togo]

Stay on target

[DarrinG]

I'd have to go even one more step further and say that Harmony Gold/Robotech.com is just a licensed money backed fan club. The animation they put out looks like fanart, the toys Toynami makes for them are mass produced fan projects and the comic books don't even look as good as the fanart we see in the character appreciation thread in the TV/Movie section. Why do you think people that get tired of RT.com come here and become Macross fans? Even worse, a couple of posts up it's mentioned that someone gets banned and becomes a Gundam fan instead. There's no sustainable life for Robotech passed the original airings. I'm a fan of that Robotech, but anything beyond is just garbage because even though they have money, they'll never have enough to invest it in something worthwhile. There were a couple of animators in this site who's projects looked better than Shadow Chronicles and when someone asked them why don't they work for HG, the answer was always "they can't afford me." PLUS... even if there was money, the people in charge creatively will most likely never give up their foothold and hire real writers and designers. You can only be a fan of the original airing of Robotech because THAT still had the touches and nuances of the original creators. Professionals that were hired and collaborated to make something good within their own element. The only chance Robotech has is if the live action movie gets made and was actually good. But if you become a fan of that, you'll be a fan of something completely different, not the Robotech you became a fan of.

Extremely well said, and I agree 100%. I usually delete most of the original quote but that deserved a reprint in its entirety.

I hope this thread changes directions, back to talking about what the future of the licenses could mean to the LAM, other projects HG might be working on, and how that effects Macross . . .

[RavenHawk]

Funny, in my opinion:

http://www.robotech.com/news/viewarticle.php?id=388

Even though the sidebar says:

"Anime Central guests include (from top to bottom): Steve Yun (Harmony Gold), Vic Mignogna (Hikaru voice actor in Macross), Matt Greenfield (English voice director on Macross), Bruce Lewis (Robotech comic artist) and Fred Perry (Robotech comic artist)."

The post on the front page says:

"Meet Harmony Gold's Steve Yun and Macross voice actor Vic Mignogna this weekend in Illinois for Anime Central! "

So, we should be excited about meeting voice actors from a show that Harmony Gold won't let us watch, and the BIG HIGHLIGHT is we get to meet Robotech.com's WEBMASTER!?!?!

Oooooooh....

Now, Fred Perry, on the other hand, I would enjoy meeting.

[Ginrai]

The animation they put out looks like fanart, the toys Toynami makes for them are mass produced fan projects and the comic books don't even look as good as the fanart we see in the character appreciation thread in the TV/Movie section.

Are you kidding? Animation is really hard to do. I would be damn impressed if fans had been able to create something like Shadow Chronicles.

[Ginrai]

I agree. Sentinels has probably the worst animation drawn by man. It makes Space Gundam V look like Macross Zero.

Oh please. Sentinels is boring and stupid but that is totally false. At least the "Inbit rip up the dumb city" scenes are pretty well animated, certainly better than anything actually in Mospeada. Let's be fair.

[Einherjar]

I hope this thread changes directions, back to talking about what the future of the licenses could mean to the LAM, other projects HG might be working on, and how that effects Macross . . .

We pretty much got through much of that in the older thread. There's not much else we can talk about until HG posts news about their developments, but you know how ambiguous they tend to be about their future.

For all the comics, novels, and animated projects like the Sentinels and Shadow Chronicles made, I thought it was a case of professionals contractually obligated to make content for Robotech. They did the bare minimum to make the stuff have that Robotech feel, whatever that means, and got their money. Judging from the content and reception by fans, many weren't paid enough or have enough time to care what they were doing. To tie it in with future projects, they might be handled the same way for salaries and potential profits.

[VF5SS]

Are you kidding? Animation is really hard to do. I would be damn impressed if fans had been able to create something like Shadow Chronicles.

The Touhou doujin anime was better than Shadow Chronicles.

[EXO]

Are you kidding? Animation is really hard to do. I would be damn impressed if fans had been able to create something like Shadow Chronicles.

I'm not kidding...

There were longer clips but they're in quicktime files.

SC was probably better than an average fan can do but nowhere near what present anime should look like and the designs DO look like bad fanart. If you're comparing something that came out a couple of years ago to something that came out in the 1980's, I would say that THAT isn't fair.

[Bri]

[...]

So, we should be excited about meeting voice actors from a show that Harmony Gold won't let us watch, and the BIG HIGHLIGHT is we get to meet Robotech.com's WEBMASTER!?!?!

Oooooooh....

Now, Fred Perry, on the other hand, I would enjoy meeting.

Amen to that.

Heck, Freds own animated project Goldigger: Timeraft (OVA) is way better then Shadow Chronicles.

[RavenHawk]

I'm not kidding...

There were longer clips but they're in quicktime files.

SC was probably better than an average fan can do but nowhere near what present anime should look like and the designs DO look like bad fanart. If you're comparing something that came out a couple of years ago to something that came out in the 1980's, I would say that THAT isn't fair.

What is that clip from?

[JB0]

I haven't seen THAT in a really long time, either...by the time it came out, I already had a lot of access to REAL anime (unsubbed, alas...but living a ten-minute drive away from Little Tokyo video stores has always had its advantages), so I never took it terribly seriously.

Pretty much all I remember about it is that Breetai looked awful, Lisa's ahir was really stupid, and there were those robot cougars that shattered like glass into teeny-tiny pieces when they fell into a ravine. We laughed out loud when we saw that.

I suppose I should look it up on youtube just to refresh my memory, but...I don't really wanna.

Hey, the mecha cougars were awesome!

...

I have an old VHS off-the-air copy of Sentinels somewhere. Complete with station logo in the corner and weather alerts.

[Gubaba]

Hey, the mecha cougars were awesome!

Yer MOM'S a mecha cougar!!!

(Sorry, couldn't resist. )

Actually, I thought they looked fine up until they fell to pieces. Somehow, seeing them break into tiny little shards didn't make them seem terribly powerful or imposing...

[RavenHawk]

Ok, them falling to pieces did look pretty bad, but I guess it was sort of meant as a shorthand way of emphasizing that they're supposed to be hollow shells.

I actually though it had great potential. Remember, the Sentinels movie was essentially put together from scrap bits from what little had been animated of a few different episodes of what was meant to be the ongoing series.

I've said it before, but I want to re-emphasize: while the Sentinels movie may be worse than Shadow Chronicles, considering that it was put together from random bits, and Shadow Chronicles was animated as written right from the start, I think we need to cut Sentinels some slack.

I actually believe that if it had come out complete, all the episodes, fully funded and animated, it would have been pretty decent and very good for a series from 1985.

[Einherjar]

I actually believe that if it had come out complete, all the episodes, fully funded and animated, it would have been pretty decent and very good for a series from 1985.

About the Sentinels, if all the plans for the series went through how long was it supposed to take to finish and then release on TV? In fact, when HG decided to scrap the series how long had people been working on it?

[terry the lone wolf]

About the Sentinels, if all the plans for the series went through how long was it supposed to take to finish and then release on TV? In fact, when HG decided to scrap the series how long had people been working on it?

I don't know how long they worked on the designs but a lot of them ended up in Zillion.

[Gubaba]

Ok, them falling to pieces did look pretty bad, but I guess it was sort of meant as a shorthand way of emphasizing that they're supposed to be hollow shells.

I actually though it had great potential. Remember, the Sentinels movie was essentially put together from scrap bits from what little had been animated of a few different episodes of what was meant to be the ongoing series.

I've said it before, but I want to re-emphasize: while the Sentinels movie may be worse than Shadow Chronicles, considering that it was put together from random bits, and Shadow Chronicles was animated as written right from the start, I think we need to cut Sentinels some slack.

I actually believe that if it had come out complete, all the episodes, fully funded and animated, it would have been pretty decent and very good for a series from 1985.

As I said before, it's been a VERY long time since I saw it (when did it come out? '88? '89? Somewhere around there...), and I never owned a copy; one of my friends brought it over one day. So I don't remember if it seemed like it was a lot of little bits, or if it was cohesive. I did go into it knowing that it was cobbled together, so I may have cut it some slack at the time. It just didn't make much of an impression, and what impression it did make wasn't very good. I'd moved on to Macross and Gundam, Megazone, Bubblegum Crisis, and a whole host of other things by that point. Robotech seemed corny and dated to me.

[Seto Kaiba]

About the Sentinels, if all the plans for the series went through how long was it supposed to take to finish and then release on TV? In fact, when HG decided to scrap the series how long had people been working on it?

Well, they'd been at it for at least a year when the project got the axe... it was supposed to come out in late 1987 or early 1988. When it got canceled, they'd already finished 3 episodes of its proposed 65 episode story.

[EXO]

I was excited about the Sentinels when it was first announced but after I got the Art Book and read the story, I was like "oh no! They're going to turn a cool series into Star Trek. With the lame aliens and weird plots. I never got into a lot of TV sci-fi because what made the ETs different were cheap prosthetics like pointy ears or bulky foreheads and the three cartoos that made Robotech up either had humans or something really weird like the Invids. Plus I love the military based technologies. That's why I was more into Cameron's Aliens and Bladerunner. I'm glad The Sentinels never went to air, but even then I don't think any of the Macross sequels were that good either.

[Einherjar]

Well, they'd been at it for at least a year when the project got the axe... it was supposed to come out in late 1987 or early 1988. When it got canceled, they'd already finished 3 episodes of its proposed 65 episode story.

That doesn't sound like enough time to complete a series that long. I talked about logistics a while back and after seriously thinking about it, it's still a nightmare to complete. Think about the conditions back in the 80s:

-Animation done in Japan and other Asian countries for a series intended for a foreign market

-A creative director based in the U.S. who oversees the project by getting material mailed to him or visiting the studios personally

-Language and other barriers making it difficult to translate Macek's vision into animation, with him having final say on how it's supposed to go

-Variable waiting time for each episode

-Finished material sent to the U.S. for voice and FX work

-Waiting for enough shows to be completed to last weeks or months for syndication reasons (shows once a week or 5 for weekday showings) to start putting them on U.S. TV

-Eventual release to other countries after more dubbing and editing are done

-Merchandising and material to promote the show sometime in the future or while it's being done (toys, comic book tie-in, etc.)

I can see why Matchbox pulled out from this, it would take too long to get anywhere.

[Gubaba]

I was excited about the Sentinels when it was first announced but after I got the Art Book and read the story, I was like "oh no! They're going to turn a cool series into Star Trek. With the lame aliens and weird plots. I never got into a lot of TV sci-fi because what made the ETs different were cheap prosthetics like pointy ears or bulky foreheads and the three cartoos that made Robotech up either had humans or something really weird like the Invids. Plus I love the military based technologies. That's why I was more into Cameron's Aliens and Bladerunner. I'm glad The Sentinels never went to air, but even then I don't think any of the Macross sequels were that good either.

Oh, I can beat you on the excitement...I remember in summer of '86, one of my school chums saying that he was dreading September (because school would start again) but he was also looking REALLY forward to it, because Sentinels would start airing.

Sentinels never made it. School, on the other hand...

[terry the lone wolf]

That doesn't sound like enough time to complete a series that long. I talked about logistics a while back and after seriously thinking about it, it's still a nightmare to complete. Think about the conditions back in the 80s:

-Animation done in Japan and other Asian countries for a series intended for a foreign market

-A creative director based in the U.S. who oversees the project by getting material mailed to him or visiting the studios personally

-Language and other barriers making it difficult to translate Macek's vision into animation, with him having final say on how it's supposed to go

-Variable waiting time for each episode

-Finished material sent to the U.S. for voice and FX work

-Waiting for enough shows to be completed to last weeks or months for syndication reasons (shows once a week or 5 for weekday showings) to start putting them on U.S. TV

-Eventual release to other countries after more dubbing and editing are done

-Merchandising and material to promote the show sometime in the future or while it's being done (toys, comic book tie-in, etc.)

I can see why Matchbox pulled out from this, it would take too long to get anywhere.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm... This almost sounds like when Marvel Animated studios were farming out Spider Friends, Transformers, and G.I. Joe to Toei Daga Studios back in the 80's. Just like a bunch of other American studios that was farming out to Japan back in the 80's.

[Einherjar]

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm... This almost sounds like when Marvel Animated studios were farming out Spider Friends, Transformers, and G.I. Joe to Toei Daga Studios back in the 80's. Just like a bunch of other American studios that was farming out to Japan back in the 80's.

But how did those shows get a lot of work done while Robotech II the Sentinels got only 3 episodes?

[ntsan]

That doesn't sound like enough time to complete a series that long. I talked about logistics a while back and after seriously thinking about it, it's still a nightmare to complete. Think about the conditions back in the 80s:

-Animation done in Japan and other Asian countries for a series intended for a foreign market

-A creative director based in the U.S. who oversees the project by getting material mailed to him or visiting the studios personally

-Language and other barriers making it difficult to translate Macek's vision into animation, with him having final say on how it's supposed to go

-Variable waiting time for each episode

-Finished material sent to the U.S. for voice and FX work

-Waiting for enough shows to be completed to last weeks or months for syndication reasons (shows once a week or 5 for weekday showings) to start putting them on U.S. TV

-Eventual release to other countries after more dubbing and editing are done

-Merchandising and material to promote the show sometime in the future or while it's being done (toys, comic book tie-in, etc.)

I can see why Matchbox pulled out from this, it would take too long to get anywhere.

How about The Simpsons? Complete animated in S.Korea

[terry the lone wolf]

But how did those shows get a lot of work done while Robotech II the Sentinels got only 3 episodes?

Hasbro's subsidiary Claster or Sunbow I'm sure fronted the money but Marvel already a established a relationship with Toei Daga with the live action Japanese Spider-Man and Battle (Japanese version of Captain America). Listen, when HG's own toy maker supporter Matchbox dropped out they lost the funding alas no series.

[Einherjar]

How about The Simpsons? Complete animated in S.Korea

That's the situation now, but not back in the 80s. Some work on The Simpsons was still done in the U.S. back then, but eventually it led to the shift to South Korean animation companies.

Work on Robotech on the other hand had production done in different countries with a lack of coordination. HG didn't have the foresight to hire other companies to work on the Sentinels besides Tatsunoko to increase production. In fact, they didn't even have the money to make the series by themselves to begin with, unlike Fox.

Edited May 7, 2009 by Einherjar

[Ginrai]

I'm not kidding...

There were longer clips but they're in quicktime files.

SC was probably better than an average fan can do but nowhere near what present anime should look like and the designs DO look like bad fanart. If you're comparing something that came out a couple of years ago to something that came out in the 1980's, I would say that THAT isn't fair.

Yeah, that's a brief all CG clip, not a feature length movie. And all CG is guess what, easier to animate to animating 2D people by hand, even with lots of animation short cuts. There's a reason fan made animation tends to be all CG or extremely short. Regular 2D animation is incredibly time-consuming. Stuff that like that short, "I'm in yer manager" or whatever it was called took like a year.

I said it when it came out and I still say it now, Shadow Chronicles is like a pilot episode for a TV show that doesn't exist with an obviously low TV show budget. Fans are not putting out stuff on this level. I'm not saying it's at all comparable to a well-done modern anime show (like Shin Mazinger Z which is gorgeous), but this does not look like fan work, it looks like a low budget production, which it is. That's what you get when you have micro-budget and it's animated by Korean inbetweeners.

Edited May 7, 2009 by Ginrai

[DarrinG]

I was excited about the Sentinels when it was first announced but after I got the Art Book and read the story, I was like "oh no! They're going to turn a cool series into Star Trek. With the lame aliens and weird plots. I never got into a lot of TV sci-fi because what made the ETs different were cheap prosthetics like pointy ears or bulky foreheads and the three cartoos that made Robotech up either had humans or something really weird like the Invids. Plus I love the military based technologies. That's why I was more into Cameron's Aliens and Bladerunner. I'm glad The Sentinels never went to air, but even then I don't think any of the Macross sequels were that good either.

Agreed. I tried to start reading the Sentinels comics and novels but the story just got too lame. I think it was a flying horse or something that was the last straw. Giant bears, glass people, floating yellow tires on the land base etc, etc.

The way the SC (& Prelude to the SC) showed the giant bear people was certainly a lot better than the dorky designs from the comics.

The Sentinels should have been about fighting the Regent on the other side of the universe with maybe the Haydenites thrown in. That's it.

I'm glad it never aired. It allows me to forget about it mostly.

[EXO]

Yeah, that's a brief all CG clip, not a feature length movie. And all CG is guess what, easier to animate to animating 2D people by hand, even with lots of animation short cuts. There's a reason fan made animation tends to be all CG or extremely short. Regular 2D animation is incredibly time-consuming. Stuff that like that short, "I'm in yer manager" or whatever it was called took like a year.

I said it when it came out and I still say it now, Shadow Chronicles is like a pilot episode for a TV show that doesn't exist with an obviously low TV show budget. Fans are not putting out stuff on this level. I'm not saying it's at all comparable to a well-done modern anime show (like Shin Mazinger Z which is gorgeous), but this does not look like fan work, it looks like a low budget production, which it is. That's what you get when you have micro-budget and it's animated by Korean inbetweeners.

SC wasn't traditional 2D though... It had a lot of 3D animated sequences. And in 3D you can only do the shortcuts after you do all the work in modeling. My point with attaching that clip was to say that there are plenty of people that would love to work on Robotech but they can never afford to hire them, which is probably the same point you have. The thing is HG will never put in the money it would take to make a good show. And if they did, they would never step out of their box to hire good creative people... said it before. And as the fanart status, it doesn't cost any more to do good character design and a good story. If you're going to put out something Robotech, a product that's always going to be associated with Macross, you'd at least have to surpass or match animation like that of Macross Plus...something that was done over a decade ago. You just can't show up in 2007 or 8, whatever year it came out and decide you're going to come out with sublevel crud.

[Einherjar]

If you're going to put out something Robotech, a product that's always going to be associated with Macross, you'd at least have to surpass or match animation like that of Macross Plus...something that was done over a decade ago. You just can't show up in 2007 or 8, whatever year it came out and decide you're going to come out with sublevel crud.

I'd like to add, in 2008-2009 you also can't decide to abandon your plans for future sublevel crud and rely on Hollywood to solve the problems you as a company got yourselves into.

[EXO]

actually, it's exactly what I would do... haha...

[Ginrai]

SC wasn't traditional 2D though... It had a lot of 3D animated sequences. And in 3D you can only do the shortcuts after you do all the work in modeling.

That's not what I said. I said it was 2D with 3D sequeneces yes, but I do not see fans producing 90 minute features with 2D animated characters, which is where I was going with that. While this is sure not to the level of DYRL or anything, I have never seen a fan creating anything close to this. If it exists, I want to see it, and no, those brief CG clips do not qualify.

My point with attaching that clip was to say that there are plenty of people that would love to work on Robotech but they can never afford to hire them, which is probably the same point you have. The thing is HG will never put in the money it would take to make a good show. And if they did, they would never step out of their box to hire good creative people... said it before. And as the fanart status, it doesn't cost any more to do good character design and a good story. If you're going to put out something Robotech, a product that's always going to be associated with Macross, you'd at least have to surpass or match animation like that of Macross Plus...something that was done over a decade ago. You just can't show up in 2007 or 8, whatever year it came out and decide you're going to come out with sublevel crud.

Well, I did say it was low budget and I don't think anyone is disputing it. I really doubt the guy who did those CG clips is capable of producing 2D animation like we are talking about as well.

I don't really think anything Robotech has to live up to Macross Plus. Robotech never ever ever has. The original Robotech didn't, Untold Story didn't, The Sentinels didn't, Shadow Chronicles doesn't, none of the comics do... While I love the original SDF Macross dearly, it is not an animation showcase.

[EXO]

That's not what I said. I said it was 2D with 3D sequeneces yes, but I do not see fans producing 90 minute features with 2D animated characters, which is where I was going with that. While this is sure not to the level of DYRL or anything, I have never seen a fan creating anything close to this. If it exists, I want to see it, and no, those brief CG clips do not qualify.

Well, I did say it was low budget and I don't think anyone is disputing it. I really doubt the guy who did those CG clips is capable of producing 2D animation like we are talking about as well.

I don't really think anything Robotech has to live up to Macross Plus. Robotech never ever ever has. The original Robotech didn't, Untold Story didn't, The Sentinels didn't, Shadow Chronicles doesn't, none of the comics do... While I love the original SDF Macross dearly, it is not an animation showcase.

Alright Ginrai, I'm not even gonna argue with you... We're on 2 different arguments... you're defending SC and I'm trying to point out that HG will never live up to their fans' standards.

[Gubaba]

Alright Ginrai, I'm not even gonna argue with you... We're on 2 different arguments... you're defending SC and I'm trying to point out that HG will never live up to their fans' standards.

Yeah...I think you're both right.

TSC looked better than ny ninety minute fanfilm could (unless, y'know, they took footage from Gunbuster and slapped it together with FB2012 and Love, Live, Alive or something... ).

But no, it doesn't look as good as ANY Macross production, except for the original SDFM series, the last episodes of MacII, and maybe Mac7. Nor was its story as good as any Macross series (yes, even the ones you hate, whoever "you" may be).

As such, it couldn't live up to the hype, or to what Robotech fans wanted it to be.

Hell, even Cpatain JLS came out and said it wasn't very good.

[Einherjar]

As such, it couldn't live up to the hype, or to what Robotech fans wanted it to be.

Hell, even Cpatain JLS came out and said it wasn't very good.

But currently what do fans want Robotech to be, a Macross clone visually but focusing on some random wars that pop up involving Protoculture (flowers) every few years?

They're in dire need of a respectful end to material that's passed its prime in their hands.

[Ginrai]

The bigger question is who cares what Robotech fans want?

I'm not really defending Shadow Chronicles, I just want fans to be more realistic in regards to what they are capable of.