Hiroshi Ohnogi and Macross Frontier

Final Vegeta · April 22, 2009

I've got some final points left to discuss, among which is the definition of a Mary Sue. The word has kind of lost its meaning because people were angered to have their characters called Mary Sue and they called all other characters Mary Sue too, not knowing what it meant. It seems even point listing is useless, that's hard mode :lol:

Truth is, while I was writing this I realized I've lost my interest in Macross Frontier (and maybe even in Macross for a while). I completed this disquisition just because I wanted to get it off my mind. I won't spend that much words about Mary Sues though, I will expound more about plot theories and why things went wrong with Ohnogi. I've tried not to be repetitive, but I guess sometimes I must be to get the point across.

First of all, many people confuse being a main character with being a Mary Sue. If you are a main character, it's no surprising at all you have loads of plot devices with or within you. It's natural to have the plot revolving around the lead. Since main characters are important to the plot they are shielded from death so they can use their plot devices. Arguably there is always some kind of luck around main characters, but you can forgive it because it allows to see the good parts.

The role of the main character is exactly this: touring where things are the hardest and the most thrilling. If the danger doesn't come to the hero, the hero must go to the danger. Obviously though sometimes the plot calls for an action by the main characters, they can't simply be sightseeing all the times. These points, where it's tested whether the main character is still the main character, are called the "climax". Since we are talking about a series with many short episodes, each episode should be expected to have its own climax; not all of these climaxes must necessarily belong to the main character, just all the important ones.

I use as example Star Wars because it's well known; as soon as the Death Star appeared you could guess Luke was somehow involved with its destiny. Some people may find ludicrous that Luke managed to pilot a spacefighter without having a proper military training and despite all this was able to win where veterans failed (Force nothwistanding). Fact is that realism in explanations is only secondary to satisfying plot requirements like having the main character do what a main character does. Sound explanations are something you use to convince your friends a movie is worthy, not what interested you in the first place. Epic climaxes are what makes movies true classics.

If you pause to reflect, you can remember that in all other movies and anime you've seen the hero always marks the center of danger. In Gundam heroes even dismount from MSs and enter asteroids/space stations. For authors it's instinctive to write scenes like those. This is an important point, since a lot of authors kind of knows what to do unconsciously, simply because they saw others do it and it felt good, not because they were taught theories. I couldn't pinpoint what was wrong in Macross Frontier too, until I found an external perspective, and even then I realized many things only while writing this.

Let's analyze Macross Frontier. Here, a character being held prisoner by villains (more properly antagonists in this case, although calling them "villains" is simpler) was a plot device to make Alto go to the center of the danger in ep. 7 and 14 (it's a staple of Kawamori anime for characters to be abducted by the villains, so that you can see how they live. Probably once there were meant to be scenes inside Macross Galaxy too). It was OK, you can't pretend a rookie creates a turning point for the plot at first, he just got his standard heroic feats. With ep. 20 though, an important battle, you knew something was wrong and Alto wasn't doing anything relevant. What happened?

Well, the technical term for it is "Mary Sue". Sheryl hijacked the role of main character from Alto; this is something you can eventually do in a minor battle, but never in anything major, especially in the last part of an anime like Macross Frontier. It's acknowledged that Alto didn't feel like the main character anymore, and this was a long-term design flaw of the writing that persisted even after this episode, but this episode sent clear warnings. The only real action Alto tried to solve the crisis, at the beginning of the episode, consisted in persuading Ranka to sing, and it failed: Ranka refused to sing. And that was not what was really bad, the really bad part was that Sheryl talked to Ranka and she instead got results. This issue looks apparently irrelevant only because the crisis wasn't solved yet, but we got another character stealing the hero's job, preventing him from doing his part.

(What if Sheryl talked to Ranka and that actually solved the crisis? Can you begin to understand how wrong it would be? How Mary Sueish? And it was done that way only because Ohnogi wanted to humiliate Ranka. If Ranka weren't in competition with Sheryl, Ohnogi wouldn't have had any restraints)

Contrary to common opinion, superpowers don't make Mary Sues (this is why they will tell you that someone may still be able to pull off stories with such characters). Even in the real world there are people with greater fortune, intelligence, social standing or skills than the others, why should fictional world be different? But no matter if the hero's allies are more powerful, more intelligent or more persuading than him, it's the main character that must get the job done; the allies may assist the hero only by cleaning the road for the final move (like it was done in ep. 25. Even DYRL was like that. Both directed by Kawamori). And mind that I said "allies": the job of a villain is exactly to prevent the hero from getting what he wants, even when it means to complete the same task (sometimes the hero and the villain may have the same objective).

The trend continued when Sheryl was left alone with Nanase: soldiers instantly came out from nowhere to so that she could separate from Alto looking responsible. Alto didn't take the initiative and lead but instead simply followed orders like a subordinate (I said orders because Sheryl was talking like Misa). The scene was written like Sheryl was supposed to impress Alto (so that he falls in love with her), while it's Alto that was supposed to impress the audience because he is the main character; Alto could still redeem himself before the end of the crisis though, but he didn't because Ohnogi didn't let him interact with the character who was the key to solve the pinch, and that cut him out from the plot.

The best they let Alto do in this episode was influencing Sheryl with a flashback (which is not like showing in front of him she was wrong), and even then you could say that Sheryl basically did all on her own. What was the point of Alto, then? Now you can begin to understand what a Mary Sue is.

And the really bad part here was that Ranka didn't behave like she was part of a love triangle anymore. This is the most unmistakable sign of every kind of Mary Sue: the lack of a fair opposition. It's not that Mary Sues are particularly good characters, just that no other character in the show is allowed to be as good as them in the same scene (not even when it's the main character!). Their rivals end up so weak they got nothing going for them, while in a good story it should be the opposite.

The most decent professional writer would have shipped Alto x Sheryl still keeping Alto as the main character. Even in Star Wars Lucas chose for Luke not having offsprings, but at least he left him as a main character; on the positive side, we won't get any sequel trilogy now.

I think there is still a central issue here in Macross Frontier not understood well neither by Ohnogi nor by the audience, though. People seem to think that Alto had simply to choose the "better" girl, the one most suited for him. This could work, weren't for this little thing called "plot". Being able to control Vajra who are at the center of the conflict between Galaxy and Frontier, Ranka is the perfect plot device for Macross Frontier. Why does Ranka have these important powers and not Alto? It's a Japanese thing: Ranka is basically a Miko.

Miko (anciently "female shaman") were women who went into trances and conveyed prophecies or the words of the kami (gods of nature/spirits). Now, Ranka is obviously not the miko with the traditional shrine outfit, but essentially she still has a deep connection with nature and she is imbued with supernatural powers outside her conscious control. Note that this is a female prerogative, male heroes may have battle powers but basically rely on braveness. Laputa and Nadia are a fine example of this brave/miko couple (Nadia was so connected to nature she could even understand animal language). There are a lot of other female anime characters with miko-like features, like Haruhi Suzumiya, Nia Teppelin or Rei Ayanami. The female usually is or has the most important plot device (gods love young girls).

(Ranka is better suited as a miko than Sheryl, because for Ranka going into trance and be overwhelmed just feels more natural)

The way Macross Frontier is structured, the story is about a war against the Vajra. The importance of a character therefore is based on how much he revolves around the Vajra. The top players are Ranka, authorities of Galaxy (Grace), and authorities of Frontier (Bilra, Leon). Obviously Ranka is the most important here since she decides how the plot ends, while the other two sides remain at the borders of the plot (they are Kingmakers, they boost the importance of Ranka and Alto, making them feel more and more like main characters. Alto's promotion by Bilra was supposed to be a counter to Galaxy's involvement with Ranka, because in ep. 7 Bilra saw love in the fold wave, therefore he understood Alto was important for Ranka). Under this tier there are characters who are directly able to make Ranka sway, that is Alto and Brera; by gaining more and more influence on Ranka, Alto progressively gains an importance equal to hers. In the last tier there is the rest of the cast: support characters. The whole SMS, aside from Alto, is nothing more than a reserve of cannon fodder for tragic occurrences. Even when Sheryl was made to be able to fight the Vajra (something that SMS also did as well), that didn't make more relevant to the plot than the SMS, she was still a filler character. This is the sad truth that will be tough to swallow for many, so I'll try to explain it once more.

Let's pretend Alto, Sheryl and Ranka don't exist, and try to follow the plot from the premises given until ep. 15. We see that it was foreshadowed Galaxy had some control on the Vajra, therefore in the end it's logical to assume Galaxy would have gained complete control on the Vajra. Galaxy should have done this only if they thought the Vajra were tough enough to make the deal worthwhile, which means being at least able to beat another Macross fleet without problems. This is why for Frontier to overcome not only the Vajra but also Galaxy's plan simply with the power of its weapons would be lame, unless Frontier managed to find the Weak Spot of the Vajra.

The Death Star had a weak spot. Sauron had a weak spot. The Zentradi fleet had a weak spot. The weak spot is one of the basics of epic writing. Not only this boils the plot down to a few key characters needed for such risky strategy, among which there is a main character, but also a weak spot allows to make the villain army strong enough to be actually threatening, because the battle is won under different conditions than attrition rate. Plus, it looks definitively better when the good guys win using their brain instead of their brawn. Going for the weak spot is the only reasonable way for the underdog army to achieve an epic victory.

This vital weak spot of the Vajra is that they care for everyone who is part of the swarm (no, it's not songs, although technically the communication with them is done through songs). Here enters Ranka, who in virtue of this is the central character of Frontier. The twist is that Ranka has a weak spot too: she longed for her long lost brother so much she felt a connection with Brera. Brera can effectively neutralize Ranka, being as much effective as manipulating her into working for Galaxy. At this point Galaxy still wins. Here enters Alto. His strongest asset in this war is True Love, while Brera in an (un)expected plot twist is downgraded to an inferior sibling relationship (that seems to be a typical canon pairing destroyer). Alto'slove wins over Brera's love and Ranka gives Alto's side the support of the Vajra. The plot was designed this way to make a love story (the love story between Alto and Ranka) central to the resolution of the plot (although there is no guarantee that Alto and Ranka would have actually stayed together at the end, knowing Kawamori). If you interfere with this Alto can't be the main character of Macross Frontier anymore.

This explains why Kawamori never resolved the love triangle even when the staff was favoring Sheryl. This is not SDFM were Minmay would have never sided with Zentradi or refused to sing, this is Macross Frontier. Since Macross Frontier's plot is built in a way that only a honest expression of interest of Alto in Ranka can allow a happy ending, the question is not whether Alto is gonna end up with Ranka or Sheryl, but whether or not Alto is gonna end up even with Sheryl.

Yeah, what about Sheryl? Well, despite all the gratuitous screentime Ohnogi gave her, it was already too late to make her relevant to the plot. Not only Ranka has been already officially declared the Little Queen, she was also friend of a Vajra larva (note how acquaintances can boost your importance to the plot), and she is the one who sings Aimo. The story then explained that Ranka was even connected to the Vajra before birth. The only way to top this is directly being a Vajra, therefore Ranka has already made useless every surrogate (ie: Sheryl), unless they accept to be minor characters who exist just to show she is better.

(The title of Little Queen, the highest rank in Macross Frontier among human characters, is highly significant. Suddenly belittling the Little Queen midseries like Ohnogi did is some kind of retcon that must also change the explanations on why Ranka was important in the first place, and by "change" I mean "omit". The more you talk about the background of the Vajra, the Vajra network and Aimo, the more you must include Ranka, therefore with less Ranka comes less explanations. Why did the Vajra destroy the 117th research fleet? "Lol I dunno, it was about Ranka")

Authors still copied&pasted Ranka's plot devices on Sheryl to salvage the show, but they meant nothing neither to her nor to the plot. Ranka had a bond with the Vajra, so she could choose not to sing against them, influencing the plot. Sheryl instead never even acquired a stance about the Vajra. The only thing she could do at this point was going with the flow, which is not particularly exciting (ie: not something characters important to the plot do). Not to mention that with the new Dimension Cutter bombs the NUNS could have been able to take on the Vajra even without her singing. In SDFM at least Minmai's songs had a symbolic meaning, they represented culture against barbarism; what was the symbolism in Sheryl singing to slaughter space bugs? Nothing, because the Vajra had a theme (communication) that revolved around Ranka; without Ranka the Vajra lose their theme and they become "monster of the week"-like villains.

(Sheryl at this point affected the plot mainly by keeping Alto away from Ranka, and there was already a character for that: Brera, who got shafted exactly because Sheryl was so much better than him at his job)

I infer the purpose of Sheryl in Macross Frontier was simply to give one of her earrings to Alto, so that he could comunicate with Ranka. Sheryl did this already in the first episode, and could have actually disappeared as early as ep. 6, maybe returning for some inspiring cameos (the fact Sheryl had so few preliminary sketches is probably significant of this). With the way things were subsequently rearranged by Kawamori, she could have given an earring to Alto as her last memento before dying. I guess that keeping her for the whole first half resulted in a forced slowing down of the plot, because to keep the love triangle on the edge Ranka was not to show the extent of her powers (I suppose this is why Ranka was not supposed to become a star. Leon was supposed to scout her earlier as a human weapon agains the Vajra before her career took off. It would make more sense since Bilra noticed a fold wave in ep. 7 but did nothing for a lot of episodes), otherwise it would have been obvious that Ranka was a lot more important to the plot and would have won the love triangle by default.

Well, there could be an alternative: Ranka could win the war all by herself, so that Alto and Sheryl could stay together. Obviously, Alto should simply refuse to be the main character, he should stay in the passenger seat with Sheryl. In fact, didn't I see this already happening once with Ohnogi? Why does the final battle with Boddole Zer feel more epic in DYRL than in SDFM? That's because in DYRL Hikaru, like a main character, goes to the center of the danger, killing Boddole Zer. In SDFM instead he renounced to fight the final battle and went to find Misa. I have always justified it thinking that Macross is the kind of work that de-emphasized main characters, so although lame for the main character not doing anything in the final battle, at the time it was appreciable for novelty's sake, but it's just bad writing. It's wasted potential.

I admit I am also envious of the rival franchise Gundam which gives main characters ludicrously powerful mecha but at least has main characters who are main characters all the time (and polls show how much this is appreciated. Lelouch was ludicrously main character, and he still tops the chart). As far as protagonists go, Gundam is typically a shower (main character is fundamental all the times) while Macross is a grower, except that in the end there is no real growth because someone skips the parts where the main character does things like a main character. I fear for the movie of Macross Frontier at this point. It will be successful because the series at the moment is popular, but it may not become a classic. Macross deserves better than a writer for whom plot means nothing.

And while Ohnogi didn't understand what made the plot click, or how to make a main character resolve climaxes like a main character, frankly it's not like the rest of his writing was superb. For example, in ep. 20 the point of Ohnogi seems to be that Ranka couldn't have done her bad impression if she was somehow cheered up, and she couldn't be cheered up because all the other characters had a dumbness attack (it's called "the idiot defense"). You see that the writing is bad because the writer is thinking that the audience will understand what's going on, but the characters shouldn't, because otherwise there's no realistic way you could get the drama you wanted. In the previous episodes the pill subplot made me think characters were abnormally attentive, but then someone switched their intelligence off.

(Not to mention the pill subplot was contradictory in itself. Why should Grace save Sheryl if she wanted to kill her blaming Vajra?)

The funny thing was how all that happened right after Sheryl said "I know very well what it means to have your heart in the song". With Kawamori songs are something larger than life: you sing and everybody understands how you really feel; in Macross Plus Isamu even recognized Myung from a song of Sharon Apple. It's therefore incongruous how top singer Sheryl, looking back at Ranka, was only interested in matching her fame as "songstress of hope" with something equivalent, remaining clueless on what happened. But even if you take away characters' intelligence and the magic of songs for drama's sake, if Ranka were to sing there is no way they couldn't solve the crisis in that episode, except for one last thing: contradictory writing.

Authors couldn't decide whether songs pacified Vajra or attracted them to the singer. In ep. 14, Vajra were pacified. In ep. 16 (the one where Ohnogi came aboard), Vajra were pacified and attracted. Mind that this was clearly seen by Alto, he was there with Ranka in every sortie. In ep. 20 though Alto is thinking that Ranka's song pacifies Vajra (no memory of Vajra being attracted to Ranka at all), and Luca thinks the same since he believes that Ranka failed only because of a lack of output, so he prompted them to go pick up Canaria's Fold Wave Amp (I don't even know why it was there, it should have remained loaded on the Koenig). Grace was shown to attest Ranka had an emotional drop, a cue that means that if Ranka were happy Vajra would be pacified, right? Yet this cue was unexpectedly discarded, and in ep. 21 Luca instead devised a plan which was based on the fact that Vajra were attracted to Ranka. Neither Luca nor Alto explained how they changed their mind about the effect of Ranka's songs (this is how lousy writers think they can get away with anything, they just don't make characters talk about plot points). At this point, even when Ranka felt better, Vajra were still as aggressive as before. Then, in Ranka's flashback Vajra are still attracted to the singer, but when Sheryl sings in ep. 24 Vajra are finally pacified once again. The only discernible pattern here is that when Ranka sings Vajra come and kill people. In the end we didn't even get to know why there were all those Vajra larvae inside Frontier, this is how good the writing was.

Pondering on these flaws I found out the reason. The last piece of the puzzle lies in the difference between Kawamori's and Ohnogi's scenarios. Watching ep. 25 you understand that Kawamori was fixated on his romantic explanation of Aimo as a love song, which is a wonderful twist. Watching ep. 23 instead you can realize what was Ohnogi's scenario: Ranka needed to be killed to stop the Vajra, because every time she sings Aimo the Vajra become more aggressive; the war can't stop while Ranka lives. Seriously. At the time we all thought Alto couldn't possibly kill Ranka, but what if the writer was actually dead serious about that? If you watch the last part with both these scenarios in mind, thinking they are going on at the same time, everything makes sense.

"The Vajra are trying to obliterate humankind."

"Using Ranka-kun as a foothold."

[...]

"That bacterium will never infest our intestines."

"On the contrary, it will invade the brain..."

"and kill the host."

"If she is an exception, that means she was infected in the womb,"

"and chose to coexist with the Vajra."

"And the Vajra tried to use her."

"That's the only conclusion I could arrive at."

"That's why the Vajra target her."

"She will connect mankind to the Vajra, and then..."

"She'll become the vanguard who leads us to peril!"

(The last two lines don't make any real sense)

This can be easily overlooked as Leon misleading Alto, but what if for Ohnogi that was supposed to be the official explanation of the show? "The Vajra are evil aliens who want to destroy humanity for no reason at all, but, bear with me, since they are aliens they first proceed by infecting a pregnant woman with their bacterium, and then they wait for the child to grow up. This is the only way because otherwise the bacterium kills humans. When things are ripe humanity is doomed, unless we kill their only foothold". Ohnogi wanted to keep open the chance that Ranka got actually killed, but at least he could have spared us his ravings.

Now, the staff usually doesn't like to kill a character, why would they want to kill Ranka even if they favored Alto x Sheryl? It is obvious that Ohnogi never told anyone his true plan in advance, or it would have been openly rejected. Ohnogi must have thought to proceed little by little, so at first he just innocently declared the Vajra were simply after Ranka, which is somehow coherent with the premises after all, so it was easily OK'ed. Ohnogi was just waiting for things to reach a point where his script was the only way to proceed, and if someone objected he could suddenly declare a lack of imagination near a deadline. If he got scolded, he just needed to get scolded so much people will get tired of scolding him and let him do as he pleased. This kind of plan obviously can only work if everyone in the staff is more stupid than the planner, therefore Kawamori wrote the script for the final episode himself. So much for the effort, Ohnogi.

This explains the last things I wanted to figure out from Macross Frontier. Why did Vajra destroyed the 117th research fleet? Because, according to Ohnogi, when Ranka sings Vajra attack. It's not more complicated than that. It was so hard to understand only because the rest of the staff was foreshadowing a different kind of story altogether. The other thing was: what happened with ep. 20 and 21? Kawamori worked personally on them (together with Kikuchi), they should have been like two ep. 7 paired together. I guess these episodes weren't supposed to be directed by Kawamori; Kawamori had to intervene because Ohnogi was aiming to create a predicament. The cliffhanger of ep. 19 was clearly written with the resolution of the love triangle in mind, like Ohnogi wanted to let important things just casually slip in the next episode. And ep. 21, well... the thing you can't help but notice is the overemphasized response from Alto to Luca's plan. It only makes sense if, for Ohnogi, Ranka was actually supposed to remain there while the bomb exploded, as stupid as it sounds. Then you read authors did not know what to do with Ranka and had to make her leave Frontier; actually, they already know what to do with her, it's just that Ohnogi gave that part to Sheryl.

(After killing Ranka so early, Ohnogi was probably going to end Macross Frontier with another Post War Arc, which is his definition of epicness)

In the end the only reason why Sheryl wasn't more blatantly Mary Sue than she was is just because Kawamori was trying all the time not only to please his friend but also to salvage the plot, and we must thank him for that.

Now, I don't know where Shaloom took that stuff, although I thank him and Magnuskn for bringing it to the attention of Western world. It's not even important for my previous arguments, because the skill needed here is simply semiotics. The curious thing is how much those liner notes really make sense, and for that I choose to believe them. For example, the fact that Sheryl was supposed to die was a real speculation we had even here because of a picture in the second OP, and it makes sense the red tapes meant Sheryl was saved. Also, in the ep. 24's liner notes it is indeed written that it was Ohnogi the one who decided Sheryl was a Nome (while before that her surname was becoming known in the magazines as "Norm").

(Ohnogi went as far as inserting Sheryl's earrings in Macross Zero, like Protoculture, who wasn't even supposed to have worked out fold dislocations, was to leave behind something as precious as that. In fact, I think in Kawamori's draft the earrings were probably given to Sheryl by Galaxy agents, and she was told they were a memento from her mother only so that she would keep them with her every time. The Fold Quartz was probably supposed to be how Galaxy tried to influence Vajra without bacteria. Possibly authors would have even suggested that love makes the Fold Quartz work better, and a related reason explained why in ep. 14 the Semi-Queen showed Ranka images of her mother. As things stand Grace should have at least noticed Sheryl's earrings were Fold Quartz (even Alto did), yet she never commented on the fact)

Here I must mention something taken from recent Shaloom translations: apparently, it was Kawamori's idea to give a cure to Sheryl in the last episode. Ohnogi commented that this was just a cliché (maybe he wanted Sheryl cured early so that she could sleep with Alto disease free?). You are talking about climax and catharsis, writing techniques used to induce emotions through the plot and not the scenes, and Ohnogi is thinking they are just cliché that for some unknown reason professional writers use. I know that there could be possibly be some mistranslations here or Ohnogi maybe was trying to say something else, but that really tells something. You can't expect anything good from a writer who treats plot theories with contempt.

I think Ohnogi must have already gotten the basics of writing, it's just that he has misconceptions about their use. For example, I feel that with Ohnogi there isn't much emphasis on climaxes, it's like cliffhangers are more important. I guess it couldn't be helped because Ohnogi had his secret plans which disregarded the plot, but even the series in the last part did not felt like it was building a climax. Yeah, there was the final confrontation with the Vajra, but the series had become nearly episodic. When you watch episode 1-7 (or 11-15) instead, you can perceive there is some kind of a flow, which just isn't there with Ohnogi.

Another tecnique you may have never heard of is emotional polarity. Basically, you either alternate things that looks good for the characters with things that looks bad, or you increase the dose. This is how you make things emotionally engaging for the audience. Episodes like 17 or 25 were written this way: NO YES NO YES NO YES YES... Notice how emotionally engaging they are. In the last part of Macross Frontier instead things got consistently bad for the characters. Since there is a trope that "true art is angsty", this may look good, but coupled with the fact that even when Alto participates in a battle he never had success in his objectives made Macross Frontier uniformly monotonous and dull. The only uplifting moment during that part was the SMS leaving, and guess what, Alto was opposing it.

(Although these techniques are good for every kind of fiction, they are much less important in writing books, while they are vital in a series of 20 minutes episodes. Each episode must be actually written like it's a new book. It must aim to captivate the audience every time, with the use of a specific structure: buildup -> climax -> denouement -> cliffhanger. For every episode. If you don't do this you are just relying on the fact that the audience already love some characters and just want to see how they end up, which is lame)

Chara development didn't help here, either. It was questioned if Ranka's shyness is a true flaw; let's see what was done in Star Wars. When Luke was skeptic about the Force, Yoda showed him what the Force could do, and told him why he failed, and this caused chara development. In this sense, Luke's skepticism is a flaw, as is the curmudgeonry of Yoda who didn't want to take Luke as a disciple, prompting Obiwan to convince him. Ranka's shyness is what makes her willingly miss good opportunities; when this happens though another character immediately comes in and help her, and there is chara development. A plot is formed by characters interacting with each others, otherwise it's just a narration (or a fan fiction); things that encourages character interactions are welcomed. And Ranka's shyness also forces her to make choices and acquire opinions on what she is doing.

What happens in the opposite case? For example, when Sheryl is asked to sing for Frontier, she accepted. Well, it sounded good for the character not wimping out, but what about the plot? If there is no opposition from the characters themselves (or from other characters), at this point the only thing left is waiting for the last episode to come, while we got a documentary on Sheryl's life. Ironically, contrary to Sheryl other characters at this point actually looked like they were doing something, because at least they revolved around the war with the Vajra, which was progressing. Now, I don't know if I could ever separate it from the fact that Sheryl was irrelevant from the plot in the first place, fact is that Ohnogi Sheryl didn't help keeping the plot dynamic. She behaved not much differently from a plot drone.

Leaving aside these issues, let's try to assess whether Ohnogi's influence on Kawamori's works was good or bad.

My personal fondness for Kawamori started while watching Escaflowne. Escaflowne had a well written plot with well written villains. Macross 7 (which I watched years later) instead was episodic, and had an inferior quality overall, but at least it still had a good story (although a shorter series would have been better), and the presence of villains was constant. When I saw Arjuna, I was not puzzled by the blatant exposition of environment-friendly themes (although sometimes characters were too verbose about that), I was puzzled by how the plot did not flow as well as before.

(Macross Plus doesn't matter much because it was created as a movie and then turned into an OVA)

Only now I notice that Ohnogi has collaborated with Kawamori in every his anime since Arjuna. And well, the plots of Kawamori's anime have become highly episodic. Now, Aquarion is a super robot show, and is somehow expected to be episodic, but it had the potential to be something else. There could have been subplots about how the Elements were reincarnations of people who lived 12,000 years ago, as suggested by the ED, but we were left with only Apollonius and Celiane in the flashbacks (as if someone couldn't conceive Apollonius and Celiane interacting with other characters, like it weakened their love story. I don't know, it sounds awfully familiar). Ohnogi was involved in both series composition and screenplay of half of the episodes. Macross Zero had its flaws too, since the beginning of episode 5 doesn't quite match the ending of episode 4, which make it looks like things were changed midway. And even here, the ep. 4, the one where villains could have been developed, was instead all about how Shin remained all alone with Sara, while Focker and Aries mysteriously took a different path (probably many other authors would have written it like that though).

Macross Frontier had a strong start. As I said, there is a flow from ep. 1 to 7. Kawamori was back to Escaflowne quality again. Ep. 8-10 are obviously casualties typical of a TV series (they are like the Island episodes in Nadia), but at least the flow began anew in ep. 11-15. Then the plot was supposed to take a new, adventurous direction. What happened next you already know.

Now, let's see the villains. Arjuna and The Daichis had only villains without a human mind (= no comunication, no rivalry). This doesn't prevent them from having a good story in their own way though, but let's see what's next. Macross Zero had underdeveloped villains (not to talk how the rivalry ended), and Aquarion had villains which were even unused (not even Macross 7 was that bad). If you pick Macross Frontier, while the Vajra were again not human-like, at least there was a decent rivalry between Alto and Brera. Then Ohnogi came and wrote it out until the final battle. Even Grace, after letting Sheryl go in ep. 18, and announcing Nanase was working with Ranka,

IIRC had no further interactions with one of the protagonists. It's no surprise Grace's master plan at this point does not feel properly explained (at least have Grace talk about it!).

With these elements in mind, I wouldn't recommend Kawamori to work with Ohnogi. The plot simply doesn't flow with Ohnogi, plus in Ohnogi's writing there's too much lack of varied character interaction, especially with the villains. It's like with him the villains are meant only to show up in the last two episodes, without any further confrontation in the episodes before, save for the episode they are introduced (this was one of the problems of Aquarion). Also as writing goes Ohnogi is not exactly thrilling or engaging. He can never match the knack of the successful entertainer Kawamori got, the way he is outrageously show-off. Kawamori came up with the KIRA' and it instantly became a widespread meme.

Personally, I think it's like the series with Ohnogi passed from X-Men 2 to X-Men 3. Mind that in X-Men 3 the new director thought exactly to give Wolverine the role the previous director had originally conceived for Cyclops. It always starts with the ill-advised intention of giving more spotlight to the character who seems to face difficulties better than the other good guys, the one who doesn't spend time thinking what to do (in which an author who doesn't spend time thinking about the plot can identify).

Now for the movie Kawamori is in a hyperpinch. He has too much sense of the main character to forget that for the hero the most charming trait in a girl is simply her relevance to the plot. He may decide to leave everything to Ohnogi and Kikuchi, similarly as he did with the movie of Escaflowne (which was bad). If it were for Kawamori though, I think at the end of the movie Sheryl would announce it's her duty to go back to Galaxy.

(For Kawamori love is about transcending distance, not about consummation)

Either way, the story of the series is too mangled to make a coherent movie. The more canon controversies the movie will introduce the better. I don't have high hopes, though. People are excited because they are thinking it will be like ep. 7, 17 and 25 put together, and certainly the graphics will be state-of-the-art, but what if the plot is on the same level of SDFM Post War Arc (the idea may not have been bad, but the execution was subpar)? With these premises, I doubt this movie will ever pull a DYRL.

FV

Mercurial Morpheus · April 22, 2009

"Truth is, while I was writing this I realized I've lost my interest in Macross Frontier"

Wow, welcome to my world. I was starting to feel the same way around the time I started writing long posts like above around episode 18. Good to know someone else understands how retyping things can warp one's POV for the worse. Though speaking of long posts, I think you've outdone even me. WOW.

I must admit though that I was rather disgusted by that interview you posted. I know a lot of that stuff goes on, but actually reading things like Kawamori loosing faith in his own work, Ohnogi's Sheryl bias (along with Kawamori's Ranka bias), and the effect chara polls have turns my stomach. So pardon me for posting this before reading your piece on it. It's an unavoidable situation though, as it's business as much as it is art. Reminds me of Bubblegum Crisis 6. The whole plot turn of Priss dying cut because it got leaked and the producers gave in to the threats that sales would diminish if they went through with it. Sadly, it was mostly animated, and you're left with an episode that ends with Priss and crew pretty much forgetting that she had a six inch combat knife thrust into her gut no less than thirty minutes prior.

I think I even agree most with Maguskn's post about Ohnogi not being so much the saviour, especially if he really did come in that late to the series. Also, if he is responsible for Sheryl's character at that point, in the end, I thought the impending death line was rather cliched and ineffectual outside of giving her a reason to act weak, especially since it was resolved exactly as I'd guessed it would be from the second Ranka left (though having read FV's post now, that's apparently Kawamori's plan, and while I agree with the timing, it still seemed a tad "Guess What" anyway. It's a no win situation in writing). I also agree about the lopsided triangle. If he was indeed responsible at that point, I'd say he probably made it even more Sheryl biased. Though I disagree on the ending being improved had he continued on this path. I feel that the ending was perfect for what they had developed. I feel that it worked better as a relationship one rather than a love one. It was the ending it had built itself up for, and to so otherwise would have pretty much just been a generic handing off of the keys to the kingdom. For it to end differently I agree that many changes need to be made in the film, particularly Alto's character. Either Ranka gets more aggressive, Alto dotes on her more, or Sheryl becomes more passive. You just can't have a a triangle with a passive member AND an indecisive one.

Edit: Having now read your opus, I must say that I agree with a lot of your observations, and disagree with others (like Hikaru's role in Love Drifts Away and the postwar arc). I have said that Frontier feels like one of the least character driven plots of any show I've seen recently, particularly Alto and so on. Though my annoyance with him was how easily he bought into Leon's bull when he should've known Ranka better than that. Instead of diving into detail on where I agreed and disagreed, all I can say is that this really makes me want to know the original scenario better. Some of the concepts you bring up just make much more sense. Like Sheryl's earrings. I too thought they were simply given to her. I was rather sickened when they added them to Zero's BD for no real reason. Interesting, if depressing read, Final Vegeta.

Edited April 22, 2009 by Mercurial Morpheus

bishopcruz · April 22, 2009

Sweet mother of Christ man. I've seen some long pro-character rants, but wow, just wow.

I won't touch on all of this post, just the general gist of Ranka not being a Mary Sue, and the idea that Sheryl is. I tend to find that a little flawed. I also take issue with your contention that you can't be a Mary Sue if you are the main character of a story. That's completely untrue. Let's go with the Wikipedia definition here:

Mary Sue, sometimes shortened simply to Sue, is a pejorative term used to describe a fictional character who plays a major role in the plot and is particularly characterized by overly idealized and hackneyed mannerisms, lacking noteworthy flaws, and primarily functioning as wish-fulfillment fantasies for their authors or readers. Perhaps the single underlying feature of all characters described as "Mary Sues" is that they are too ostentatious for the audience's taste, or that the author seems to favor the character too highly. The author may seem to push how exceptional and wonderful the "Mary Sue" character is on his or her audience, sometimes leading the audience to dislike or even resent the character fairly quickly; such a character could be described as an "author's pet".

Ranka, it could be argued was pretty much this from the get go, fits this bill. I was kinda curious so I ran her through the Mary Sue litmus test, imperfect I know, it goes easier on film and anime characters, but I thought it could be fun. She scored a 53, well into the "Kill it dead." territory. BTW, Sheryl doesn't escape unscathed, as she does have some definite tendencies with her score of 29, but some things that might have really stood out as Sueisms fall to the wayside in the face of Ranka.

And of course none of them are as bad as the all time worst sue in a commercial product, Alice from the Resident Evil movies. She got a 125. But I digress.

Ranka was clearly the intended belle of the ball throughout most of the series, and her characterization suffered for it. From episode one she was set up as the bubbly energetic, sweet, and earnest moe ideal, and while she was clearly not as bad as some moe characters, she definitely suffered as a result.

Then we have the random contrivances:

1. Her hair: She, and she alone has hair that moves with her emotions, and not only that, it moves like a dog's ears. She has slight fangs, again, pretty unique, the writers even had to retcon these in as genetic heritage even though they had never been seen or hinted at in Macross canon before.

2. Everyone loves Ranka: Everyone, period. I mean this. Until her little run off to the other side of the war, she was met with universal adoration. Her rival in romance loves her, her brother's friends love her, random people on the street love her, she's just that MOE.

3. She becomes a world class talent more or less overnight. Her role-model is moved by how good she is, random passers-by stop in awe, nearby musicians decide to back up her vocals, and she - never having been shown to have even taken singing lessons, becomes a THE hot thing in the galaxy in a few weeks. She was apparently a great actress as well, despite never having acted a day in her life before. This is also actually a first for a Macross Idol, Minmay had been taking acting and singing lessons for quite some time, Sheryl likely had too (at least singing, and had been popular for a while), Basara had been playing since he was a kid, but Ranka showed that practice was for chumps.

4. Special powers, communing with beasts, last great hope for peace. She is special, specifically because of her unique birth. She can thus commune with the Vajra, and make the world a better place.

5. Constantly being saved by Hot Guys. Marty Stu's are often saving hot girls, Mary Sues have a bit of variance in that they can either a) do all the ass kicking or b) have all the ass-kicking done FOR them. Ranka is clearly the latter. Every dude on Frontier wants to protect her, and kill tons of bugs, less for duty, and more just because she is.

Some of this stuff is universal for major characters, and anime often can exacerbate someone's Mary Sue-ness. But Ranka has it worse than anyone else, and she does have all the signs of being the author's pet.

I'll address some of the other points later on.

I will however address your main argument that Ranka a character who had been evolving perfectly well was sidelined and trashed by the villainous Ohnogi. Well, there are two problems with that.

Ok, one thing though is I think it's time that we consider moving away from the idea that Ohnogi was this mastermind, for good or ill, that changed the course of the series post episode 18. While I do contend, and there is ample evidence that Ranka was the original focus of the LT (Originally AltoxRankaXBrela) that changed before the series entered production. I think there are definite hints that SOMETHING changed Kawamori's mind, but as to what that was, it's still unclear.

At this point it is looking less and less like it was Ohnogi. Ohnogi was first mentioned in relation of MacF and this fandom in a Famitsu interview that supposedly broke down each episode and kawamori's feelings on it. I'm waiting on good pics/scans of that interview, but as I wait for them, the person who has said Famitsu has told me that the interview in that issue 1035, does not appear to be the same one that made the rounds on the net. This appears to be backed up by stuff I have found on the web.

Also, as has been stated in this thread before, Ohnogi is mentioned NOWHERE, in the credits, official websites, unofficial websites, for having done anything other than episode 10. Also, the timing seems odd too. Ohnogi should have been too busy making Mnemosyne to have TIME to do the last 6 episodes of Frontier. I'm still trying to find out the average lead time for an animated episode from script to finished work, but I know in the US, it can close in on a year. With anime I know that the lead time is less, but even if it was say, a quarter of what it is here, say 3 months, I don't know how much of an effect a sudden rise in Sheryl's popularity would have.

In other words, if she really WAS suppose to have left in episode 7 or so, she probably would have. Fan reaction to Star Date was great, but there is NO WAY it could have influenced an episode that came along just a few weeks later. It MIGHT have influenced say 18+ but even that might be pushing it. It's far more likely that the series we saw was planned well before any of it was shown. In fact the lack of any way to gain lead time during a series' production pretty much makes that a necessity.

This of course brings up some interesting questions. Why was there a change in focus towards the end? Many use Ohnogi as the source and make Kawamori out as this either savior or villain of the show. The evidence doesn't support that though. If it was anyone it is far more likely that Hiroyuki Yoshino would be the man behind it, as he was the only credited person on the screenplays for the entire show.

Now if anyone can give me evidence that Ohnogi really ACTUALLY did everything, or hell, ANYTHING he is credited/accused of in relation to this series, I'll rethink an change my position. I'm just thinking more and more, that we're going on bad information here.

Moving on from that. You make a lot of assumptions about how the plot WOULD have gone, with surprisingly little evidence, you have pretty much bought the idea that Sheryl came and her character was overpowering and shoved Ranka off to the sidelines due to one guy just not liking her. What I find much more likely is the idea that I beleive acutally has been in verifiable interviews which was that Ranka was a hard character to write effectively. The moe archetype has very few angles of development available to it, and that was a problem. The writers had effectively written the Ranka arc into a corner by episode 17.

I again, admit the anime itself shows several inconsistencies in tone, characterization and plotting. I still have the impression that early on she was supposed to have been the primary love interest, but considering that Kawamori likes his open endings (heavily documented), I doubt that Sheryl would have been doing nothing the whole series either. In either case there were failures aplenty in the scripting of this series, the LT is just one of them.

But even if you think that this is the work of someone in the staff other than Kawamori strong-arming their favorite character in, all evidence points to it NOT being Ohnogi, as he likely wasn't even involved.

dna · April 23, 2009

Frontier, as a whole, sucked so bad I don't understand why I read all 6 pages of this thread. I wish it had never been born.

Gubaba · April 23, 2009

Frontier, as a whole, sucked so bad I don't understand why I read all 6 pages of this thread. I wish it had never been born.

tl/dr.

Back to bishopcruz's point...yeah, I certainly can't find any ACTUAL references to Ohnogi working on Frontier. Nor can I find any information whatsoever about this radio show that Ohnogi was interviewed on.

I still can't believe that Shaloom would make all of this up...but there doesn't seem to be any proof anywhere.

sketchley · April 23, 2009

Frontier, as a whole, sucked so bad I don't understand why I read all 6 pages of this thread. I wish it had never been born.

Perhaps you're looking at it in wrong terms. Look at the revival of all things Macross that we are currently experiencing. Can the series be that bad, when it's selling like hot cakes, spawned a whole industry of Macross related goodies, and has increased the likelihood of another Macross sequel significantly? (This is a rhetorical question, so don't feel obliged to answer it as it with your opinions on why the show isn't your cup of tea as whatever your opinions are it won't take away from the facts summarized in my post. )

HannouHeiki · April 23, 2009

I love Macross, and SDFM will always be the best; I don't know if there can ever be another.

I agree, Macross Frontier didn't have the best plot. The depth of most characters barely went beyond the surface.

Despite that, Macross Frontier was hot. The action, mecha, and in-jokes to Macross of the past was all pure sex. I loved every minute of it. When I reflect on the show, I never really find myself thinking deeply about it at all, but I do think of it fondly.

The final episode was awesome; I loved every second of it. The final battle with all of its one liners, like "Ima! Macross Attack!," Ozma's Totsugeki Love Heart, and Alto and Brera's "Dakedo.....We love someone! RAAAARRRGH!!!!" were all delivered with perfect seriousness, lol. Never in my life did I love so much cheese; for me there was some magic in it.

And what is better than the Minmay attack? Use two girls instead of one! And why is Nyan Nyan Service Medley so awesome when it is just a Macross Remix?

And MacF finally explains why the New Macross class uses a transformation: so it can use the Hyper Macross Smash Fist to the Galaxy's face.

I laughed, but it felt good. Macross Frontier tastes good but feels like it's bad for my health. Any show that piles on fan service usually start to feel lame early on, but somehow, for me at least, it worked.

Would I have liked this show as much if it was not Macross? Maybe not...but Macross Frontier is just like that hot young girl that drives you nuts even though you think she's as dumb as a rock.

Edited April 23, 2009 by OptimusX

Wall-E · April 23, 2009

Now if anyone can give me evidence that Ohnogi really ACTUALLY did everything, or hell, ANYTHING he is credited/accused of in relation to this series, I'll rethink an change my position. I'm just thinking more and more, that we're going on bad information here.
Moving on from that. You make a lot of assumptions about how the plot WOULD have gone, with surprisingly little evidence, you have pretty much bought the idea that Sheryl came and her character was overpowering and shoved Ranka off to the sidelines due to one guy just not liking her. What I find much more likely is the idea that I beleive acutally has been in verifiable interviews which was that Ranka was a hard character to write effectively. The moe archetype has very few angles of development available to it, and that was a problem. The writers had effectively written the Ranka arc into a corner by episode 17.

I again, admit the anime itself shows several inconsistencies in tone, characterization and plotting. I still have the impression that early on she was supposed to have been the primary love interest, but considering that Kawamori likes his open endings (heavily documented), I doubt that Sheryl would have been doing nothing the whole series either. In either case there were failures aplenty in the scripting of this series, the LT is just one of them.

But even if you think that this is the work of someone in the staff other than Kawamori strong-arming their favorite character in, all evidence points to it NOT being Ohnogi, as he likely wasn't even involved.

I don't mean to raise pitchforks. This is the only source I found to support all this notion that Ohnogi worked on the second half and nowhere else. I looked more into it and I found that it also came from Macrossworld.

http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p...;postcount=2122

^ That was the famitsu interview complete with episode commentaries from Kawamori. Would this mean the cited famitsu article was different from the one I just posted? There was no confirmation that the content was similar. Might shaloom be mistaking Ohnogi for someone like Yoshino?

I can atleast confirm and perhaps the others too that there was a cited magazine interview last year stating that Sheryl was supposed to have a small role as opposed to Ranka if it weren't for the fans. That is why they made the story into a battle between two rival singers. Minmeis so to say. That might be the reason why Ranka was shafted in the end to spare limelight on Sheryl. Two little queens ending. Personally, I didn't like the two Minmeis thing because Alto's character was shafted the MOST. I agree with Final Vegeta on that. How long did it take you to type all that rant? Good going on hating the writer. We don't hate the characters drawn on paper, we hate the human controlling them from behind. :lol:

Edited April 23, 2009 by Wall-E

Gubaba · April 23, 2009

I can atleast confirm and perhaps the others too that there was a cited magazine interview last year stating that Sheryl was supposed to have a small role as opposed to Ranka if it weren't for the fans. That is why they made the story into a battle between two rival singers. Minmeis so to say. That might be the reason why Ranka was shafted in the end to spare limelight on Sheryl. Two little queens ending. Personally, I didn't like the two Minmeis thing because Alto's character was shafted the MOST. I agree with Final Vegeta on that. How long did it take you to type all that rant? Good going on hating the writer. We don't hate the characters drawn on paper, we hate the human controlling them from behind.

Hmmm...I think that idea gets a little TOO much creedence. Certainly, but the time of the premiere of the Deculture Edition (December 2007), the triangle was ready...the Preview at the end of the Deculture Edition is spoken by Alto, Ranka, and Sheryl ONLY, and both Ranka and Sheryl say loving words about Alto.

It's kind of like saying that Minmay was never meant to be a rival to Misa for Hikaru's affections (nor was she ever emant to be a singer), since in planning stages she was only a waitress at the Chinese restaurant, and her role consisted solely of trotting food up to the bridge.

It's verifiably true, but it has little to do with the way the show turned out.

So saying that Sheryl got an expanded role...sure, fine. But WHEN did she get it? After half a year of planning? When they were storyboarding the first episode? After episode five aired? When it happens makes all the difference.

Mercurial Morpheus · April 23, 2009

It's kind of like saying that Minmay was never meant to be a rival to Misa for Hikaru's affections (nor was she ever emant to be a singer), since in planning stages she was only a waitress at the Chinese restaurant, and her role consisted solely of trotting food up to the bridge.
It's verifiably true, but it has little to do with the way the show turned out.

I never knew that one. Certainly provides an interesting perspective on things. Thanks

So saying that Sheryl got an expanded role...sure, fine. But WHEN did she get it? After half a year of planning? When they were storyboarding the first episode? After episode five aired? When it happens makes all the difference.

I definitely agree that when is important. A lot of this Ohnogi stuff does seem fishy, but it also seems plausible that something happened at one point, as the tone does feel like Frontier didn't go as planned (not as blatantly as CG R2 mind you, but it did feel like changes were made during production). That, and the last few episodes did seem like a bit of a departure in the character telling. Though maybe that was just the "We've got to wrap this stuff up so mehow fast" effect. Sheryl could also have been loving of Alto and not be a lead early on too, if you really want to stretch things. It's not a stretch to imagine her being a central figure early on and then leaving in some way.

Frontier's just one of those shows that's awesome in motion, kind of blah when it's inert and you think of it too much. It's both deep and shallow at the same time. It all depends on what and how deeply you read into it. It's weird like that. Though I suppose that's true of a lot of things.

Though I'm sure just one man, who may have merely influenced the show if anything, wasn't alone to blame. It's a veriety of circumstances that cause these things. Code Geass is an excellent example of how merely changing the timeslot can wreck havoc with the planning. So to say it's all Ohnogi, who may not have even done anything, is sort of like trying to find a scapegoat.

That said, I do think FV makes some astute observations. Whether you agree with them or care about them in the same way if entirely personal. To each their own. Frontier is a fun show that could've been a lot better at times. Nothing unique about that, and no shame in liking or hating it for it. No amount of bad writing is also going to stop sales of scantily dressed Sheryl figures and transforming VF-25s. At least not for awhile. If they plan right they can really improve some things in the movie. Hopefully enough to make up for cutting so much.

bishopcruz · April 23, 2009

@Gubaba

Hmmm...I think that idea gets a little TOO much creedence. Certainly, but the time of the premiere of the Deculture Edition (December 2007), the triangle was ready...the Preview at the end of the Deculture Edition is spoken by Alto, Ranka, and Sheryl ONLY, and both Ranka and Sheryl say loving words about Alto.
It's kind of like saying that Minmay was never meant to be a rival to Misa for Hikaru's affections (nor was she ever emant to be a singer), since in planning stages she was only a waitress at the Chinese restaurant, and her role consisted solely of trotting food up to the bridge.

It's verifiably true, but it has little to do with the way the show turned out.

So saying that Sheryl got an expanded role...sure, fine. But WHEN did she get it? After half a year of planning? When they were storyboarding the first episode? After episode five aired? When it happens makes all the difference.

That's pretty much it. Fact is, at least as far as production was concerned, Sheryl was always in the LT, you look at the original opening, you look at the fact that pretty much every major character in the OP was a major player, and Sheryl 'bit' role hypothesis doesn't make a whole lot of sense. If the show had been what Kawamori originally intended in the early planning stages, then we have an argument, verifiable interviews have stated as much IIRC. However as Gubaba said, things changed, by the time the series came to air, it was a different beast, the LT was no longer AlBreRa but SheAlRa or what have you. In fact at no point in the early episodes does Sheryl seem like a side character, especially in regard to the LT. By episode 7, she's cemented into it.

Lead times being what they are, unless there was a MASSIVE outpouring of love by the fans during the Deculture preview, it would have been impossible to implement the type of changes that people are talking about in the time they had. It just couldn't be done. It had to have happened early in the planning stages, perhaps the staff realized Sheryl was more interesting as a main than as a recurring, perhaps they thought that 2 girls on 1 guy LT was more marketable to their fanbase, maybe it was a mix of the above.

The latest it could have happened would have just post Deculture.

What is becoming increasingly clear however though, is that the impression of how the series progressed that many in the communities have seems kinda, I dunno, unrealistic. Unless the lead time for an individual episode of anime is less than that of a live action show here in the US, many of these accusations simple cannot work.

^ That was the famitsu interview complete with episode commentaries from Kawamori. Would this mean the cited famitsu article was different from the one I just posted? There was no confirmation that the content was similar. Might shaloom be mistaking Ohnogi for someone like Yoshino?

It took me a while to track down that article as it wasn't posted on the website, and I'm currently waiting for scans/pics from a forum-member who grabbed it in Japan. From what I was told, the interview in the Famitsu is NOT like the one that was posted, though I am waiting on more details.

That one though, is really just the last in a string of what can really only amount to disinformation that has spread about Ohnogi's involvement. Now again, if I am wrong, and anyone can show me verifiable proof that I am, well I'm human, I can make mistakes, and I'll freely admit to it. However, it's not just the famitsu article that seemed off, as has been stated previously in this thread, there is no evidence that this "other" Macross Radio show existed, the Ohnogi "novels/short stories" have yet to be verified, and very little adds up.

Now it is possible that he is mistaking Yoshino for Ohnogi, but it's kinda hard for me to imagine as being credible, the first names, while similar sounding to someone who doesn't speak Japanese, are different enough to not be easily mistaken by anyone who is literate in the language. The last names are pretty damn different as well. If you get past the reading into the radio interviews, it becomes even less likely that the mistake could be just that.

At least that's where I stand on the issue.

Edit: Post made while I posted:

That, and the last few episodes did seem like a bit of a departure in the character telling. Though maybe that was just the "We've got to wrap this stuff up so mehow fast" effect. Sheryl could also have been loving of Alto and not be a lead early on too, if you really want to stretch things. It's not a stretch to imagine her being a central figure early on and then leaving in some way.

Well, clearly changes were made from the original concept. Of that I think there is no doubt, changes were also likely made during the writing/storyboarding process, and possibly even during production. Basically, if this series were to have an LT at all, by the time it made it into production all that it really had to go on was the SxAxR one. Brela was pretty much revealed to be Ranka's brother from the get go, and that kinda kills that one off. Macross has always had a Triangle, Mech Action, and Music, and getting rid of Sheryl early on kills one of the three, and hurts another.

Plus, let's be honest here, as much as I love Frontier, it's characters were pretty much designed by committee, you pretty much had one of every major anime fetish in the main cast, and it was in many ways, set up to appeal to its target audience as much as possible. It has been quite successful in that regard, but it does mean that there is a bit of trying to figure out what the fans want, even before the show airs, the current LT was likely a result of that, Sheryl and Ranka being more marketable than Alto and Brela, after all, there ahve been a lot more Minmei and Mylene dolls sold as opposed to Basara ones.

Edited April 23, 2009 by bishopcruz

Mercurial Morpheus · April 23, 2009

If we're using OPs as meters of intention, Grace was meant to be timid and mild, given that that's how she appears even after we know it's false. Not the fairest example admittedly, but OPs lie all the time (or give too much away), and I've seen OPs that feature supporting characters heavily. If she featured in half the episodes she's in it. Plus they could've easily animated the OP long after the changes were made, so it doesn't really prove anything. That, and most of the accusations are that the real changes came late in the series, and it is the end that feels odd (though I still feel the Sheryl was uneven in the early episodes, though I'm all but alone in this). Fan opinion can affect pretty early. Jeremiah Gottwald is a good example of how fan appreciation literally saved a character, as he was supposed to be killed, but word of his popularity reached the delayed production in time to save him. Sorry if I bring up Geass so often, but it is a great example of how stuff changes, and how quickly they can be made.

bishopcruz · April 23, 2009

If we're using OPs as meters of intention, Grace was meant to be timid and mild, given that that's how she appears even after we know it's false. Not the fairest example admittedly, but OPs lie all the time (or give too much away), and I've seen OPs that feature supporting characters heavily. If she featured in half the episodes she's in it. Plus they could've easily animated the OP long after the changes were made, so it doesn't really prove anything. That, and most of the accusations are that the real changes came late in the series, and it is the end that feels odd (though I still feel the Sheryl was uneven in the early episodes, though I'm all but alone in this). Fan opinion can affect pretty early. Jeremiah Gottwald is a good example of how fan appreciation literally saved a character, as he was supposed to be killed, but word of his popularity reached the delayed production in time to save him. Sorry if I bring up Geass so often, but it is a great example of how stuff changes, and how quickly they can be made.

When was the change made in Geass? I also don't think MacF was heavily delayed. Now if we were to take let's say a 3-4 month lead time in episode production, or hell even a 2 month lead time, there could have been changes made for the last series of episodes, maybe Sheryl WAS going to die, maybe something else. Fan reaction COULD have affected those, MAYBE. but if we take a two month lead time from Star Date we get Ep. 13, if we wait till ep 7 we get to Ep 15, neither of which are very Sheryl centric. And that's assuming a pretty short turnaround for these episodes.

As for the OP, she isn't just some character in the OP, she's the second character we see, is ALWAYS featured in the triangle-ish images, and is focused on more than even Ranka. I find it hard to believe that when the regular version of episode 1 aired, they were planning to ditch her for a while 6 episodes later, and then have her make intermittent appearances. That would work if it was the originally planned triangle, but that concept was clearly gone by the time Deculture aired.

I suppose all we are currently arguing is probability, I think everyone admits that there was a shift later on in the series, but what we really know nothing of is how or WHY the shift happened. It could have been how the story evolved among the staff, it could have been them trying to wrap up too big a story in too little time, it could have been any number of things. But the question is still more when it happened than anything else.

Gubaba · April 23, 2009

That said, I do think FV makes some astute observations. Whether you agree with them or care about them in the same way if entirely personal. To each their own. Frontier is a fun show that could've been a lot better at times. Nothing unique about that, and no shame in liking or hating it for it. No amount of bad writing is also going to stop sales of scantily dressed Sheryl figures and transforming VF-25s. At least not for awhile. If they plan right they can really improve some things in the movie. Hopefully enough to make up for cutting so much.

I hope I've never come across as slagging FV. As others have said, he put an enormous amount of thought and effort into his postings in this thread and elsewhere, especially considering that English isn't his first language.

I do disagree with his conclusions, mostly because A) there's no firm evidence Ohnogi was involved with the production (but that's not FV's fault), and B) he makes a lot of assumptions as to the original direction of the show, none of which could be known to him (unless he's friends with the higher-ups at Satelite).

I'm a former lit major...overthinking stuff is what I did SOLELY for four years of my life, and it's something I continue to do. But it's not something I do with Macross. Homer, Dante, Shakespeare...THESE can be dissected and discussed and thought about endlessly, and you'll never demolish them. Macross, however, can't withstand that kind of scrutiny...and because I like Macross, I refrain from looking at it too hard. Maybe that's a mistake on my part...

As such, I'm trying not to look to the movie to fix all the flaws of the show. It won't. If it's done well, it'll be a nice little addition to the Macross Universe, nothing more, nothing less.

@Gubaba
That's pretty much it. Fact is, at least as far as production was concerned, Sheryl was always in the LT, you look at the original opening, you look at the fact that pretty much every major character in the OP was a major player, and Sheryl 'bit' role hypothesis doesn't make a whole lot of sense. If the show had been what Kawamori originally intended in the early planning stages, then we have an argument, verifiable interviews have stated as much IIRC. However as Gubaba said, things changed, by the time the series came to air, it was a different beast, the LT was no longer AlBreRa but SheAlRa or what have you. In fact at no point in the early episodes does Sheryl seem like a side character, especially in regard to the LT. By episode 7, she's cemented into it.

Lead times being what they are, unless there was a MASSIVE outpouring of love by the fans during the Deculture preview, it would have been impossible to implement the type of changes that people are talking about in the time they had. It just couldn't be done. It had to have happened early in the planning stages, perhaps the staff realized Sheryl was more interesting as a main than as a recurring, perhaps they thought that 2 girls on 1 guy LT was more marketable to their fanbase, maybe it was a mix of the above.

The latest it could have happened would have just post Deculture.

What is becoming increasingly clear however though, is that the impression of how the series progressed that many in the communities have seems kinda, I dunno, unrealistic. Unless the lead time for an individual episode of anime is less than that of a live action show here in the US, many of these accusations simple cannot work.

Well...I imagine EVERYONE has heard stories of the film reels for SDFM being dropped off at the TV studio minutes before it was going on air...but I'm sure Kawamori has worked it out so that never happens again. While changes can happen quick, that's not how the producer/director/sponser really WANTS it...it makes the venture a lot less "safe." Frontier was MEANT to start airing at the end of 2007, but ended up being delayed for six months (and yet, they had a first episode ready to air by December)...that, to me, gives some indication of the amount of prep work needed to get the show broadcast weekly. I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure they had a number of episodes done before the show debuted.

So yeah, I'm agreeing with you.

Mercurial Morpheus · April 23, 2009

When was the change made in Geass? I also don't think MacF was heavily delayed. Now if we were to take let's say a 3-4 month lead time in episode production, or hell even a 2 month lead time, there could have been changes made for the last series of episodes, maybe Sheryl WAS going to die, maybe something else. Fan reaction COULD have affected those, MAYBE. but if we take a two month lead time from Star Date we get Ep. 13, if we wait till ep 7 we get to Ep 15, neither of which are very Sheryl centric. And that's assuming a pretty short turnaround for these episodes.
As for the OP, she isn't just some character in the OP, she's the second character we see, is ALWAYS featured in the triangle-ish images, and is focused on more than even Ranka. I find it hard to believe that when the regular version of episode 1 aired, they were planning to ditch her for a while 6 episodes later, and then have her make intermittent appearances. That would work if it was the originally planned triangle, but that concept was clearly gone by the time Deculture aired.

I suppose all we are currently arguing is probability, I think everyone admits that there was a shift later on in the series, but what we really know nothing of is how or WHY the shift happened. It could have been how the story evolved among the staff, it could have been them trying to wrap up too big a story in too little time, it could have been any number of things. But the question is still more when it happened than anything else.

I agree that we don't really know anything for sure, and my arguments are more subjective possibilities to illustrate the points being made. For example, I could've easily seen Sheryl dying on Galia IV. It might not have been ever planned, but I could imagine a scenario where it could work. Her death motivating Alto, Ranka and Frontier into the war even further like Grace planned. I also never said MF was delayed, Code Geass was, and it's been well documented. Gottwald was meant to be a pompous ass comic relief whose main purpose was ton die as the first victim of Kallen's Knightmare. People liked him, so they had him eject (rather convenient considering the first sap she uses it on it fries all their systems instantly). In fact, this was to be a production injoke, as he's voiced by Ken Narita, and he would've died at the Battle of Narita. There's even info on how the change to a later timeslot shifted the concept from a more rigid military drama to the science fantasy it became, as well as the switch in R2's timeslot causing them to flush a lot of the first episodes to reintroduce the characters. That, and the BGC incident does show how shows do change for various reasons. So I'm merely agreeing with the theory that changes were made to MF's story as it progressed to fan reaction, second guesses and so on. If it's one thing that's certain, if a character slated to die becomes popular on Sheryl's inexplicable level, naturally they aren't going to pull the trigger if they have the option. I still don't get why Star Date is considered the high water mark myself... ;

Gubaba, I never said you were slagging him. You're one of the fairest members on this board when it comes to differing opinion, and I do agree with you on some of the conclusions. This is essentially a wild goose chase until further materials are released that paint a better picture as to the early production of MF. I totally agree that when you look at entertainment like this from too many angles, it tends to fall apart. I've learned that the hard way, especially in trying to nail down my own thoughts of Sheryl in light of her rabid fandom. I'd probably enjoy her a lot more if I'd taken thing at or just below face value. Though analysing can help. Deep discussions of character motivation elevated the near trainwreck R2 as it allowed better focus on what worked and why we loved it in the first place. It was an interesting contrast given that they were airing concurrently. So it really depends on how you look at it. If you go looking for flaws, you'll find them, and vice versa. It really is a manner of deluding one's self to a non-obvious conclusion. It's how some see Sheryl as Kawamori's gift to anime, while other see her as merely average or downright terrible. Same for Ranka. My favorite example of this was the theory that the entire second half of Star Trek: The Next Generation was a figment of Data's guilt filled mind and the Enterprise is eternally stuck in orbit after the computer didn't record his code properly as an excuse to justify the production error. Though that was a joke. I'd like to think no one is THAT delusional, though some blogs make me fear otherwise, especially in shipping.

Of course the movie isn't going to be a fix all. They almost never are sadly. DYRL is a downright fluke in terms of its quality as a retelling. Though even it is flawed and it characterization pales in comparison to the TV series due to the constraints of the medium (namely time). I do think that if done properly, a Frontier movie can at least better balance the numerous parts of the story, particularly the triangle.

Edited April 23, 2009 by Mercurial Morpheus

Mr March · April 23, 2009

I hope I've never come across as slagging FV. As others have said, he put an enormous amount of thought and effort into his postings in this thread and elsewhere, especially considering that English isn't his first language.
I do disagree with his conclusions, mostly because A) there's no firm evidence Ohnogi was involved with the production (but that's not FV's fault), and B) he makes a lot of assumptions as to the original direction of the show, none of which could be known to him (unless he's friends with the higher-ups at Satelite).

I'm a former lit major...overthinking stuff is what I did SOLELY for four years of my life, and it's something I continue to do. But it's not something I do with Macross. Homer, Dante, Shakespeare...THESE can be dissected and discussed and thought about endlessly, and you'll never demolish them. Macross, however, can't withstand that kind of scrutiny...and because I like Macross, I refrain from looking at it too hard. Maybe that's a mistake on my part...

As such, I'm trying not to look to the movie to fix all the flaws of the show. It won't. If it's done well, it'll be a nice little addition to the Macross Universe, nothing more, nothing less.

I'd agree, with a few caveats. A lot more thought goes into something like Macross than people give credit. But at the same time, Macross never delves deep enough to justify extensive study upon the subject. Macross, for better or worse, is what it is. Macross can be an exceptional example of childrens animated entertainment, but it's not meant to have all the multi-faceted substance and complexity of the best adult entertainment. Things like this excessive dissection are attempting to hold Frontier to a standard that not even SDF Macross, or any other anime, could hope to beat. Hell, some of the best mainstream entertainment couldn't withstand this level of scrutiny. What's worse is every new fact, production note or interview released after the fact becomes just more fodder for an overwrought theory that was reaching from the beginning.

I'll also add that if the writers for anime are treated anything like the writers in film and TV, they are the last to know. Writers, even more so than actors, get handled by everyone in a given production, especially the producers and directors.

Bri · April 23, 2009

I would agree with Gubaba and Mr March that Macross (Frontier or otherwise) cannot really withstand deep analysis. Honestly, I feel that is true for all visual media. All cinema is essentially constrained by a 3 hour time frame. Character development and themes can only be worked out, as far as this time limit allows. You can only interpret so much and quite often the reviewer sees things and concepts the creators did not intend or even realise. This topic probably among them.

What interests me in this topic is the assumptions made about the time frame for anime productions. The preparation time to start on a new project is very short. Examples of anime projects starting preparations one cour or less before they air are not uncommon, certaintly not given the limited finance. I have no data on Frontier but Escaflowne ran on a budget of 276,000USD per episode(source: Canned Dogs), of which less then 25% on actual animation production. I doubt that in this kind of tightly scheduled and financed projects much room is allowed for altering already produced material.

bishopcruz · April 23, 2009

I would agree with Gubaba and Mr March that Macross (Frontier or otherwise) cannot really withstand deep analysis. Honestly, I feel that is true for all visual media. All cinema is essentially constrained by a 3 hour time frame. Character development and themes can only be worked out, as far as this time limit allows. You can only interpret so much and quite often the reviewer sees things and concepts the creators did not intend or even realise. This topic probably among them.

But that's what fans do, we analyze an delve into things, sometimes obsessively, trying to find out as much as we can about the universe, and how things work. Macross is no expection, I mean look at the number of books and magazines devoted to detailing nearly every aspect of the world. Now whether or not it can stand up to the scrutiny, and sometimes it can, other times it can't. Sometimes, as with Mac7, it doens't even TRY. But fans always want to know and see more, we're curious about what happened between episodes, we want to know the hows, the whys.

And trust me, compared to some online fandom's we're pretty damn tame, look at some of the Buffy boards while it was airing, or Heroes, or BSG.

What interests me in this topic is the assumptions made about the time frame for anime productions. The preparation time to start on a new project is very short. Examples of anime projects starting preparations one cour or less before they air are not uncommon, certaintly not given the limited finance. I have no data on Frontier but Escaflowne ran on a budget of 276,000USD per episode(source: Canned Dogs), of which less then 25% on actual animation production. I doubt that in this kind of tightly scheduled and financed projects much room is allowed for altering already produced material.

Not exactly sure what you were trying to say. I know that the show would have to be on a tight schedule, by its very nature, Anime air dates are damn unforgiving. What I was wondering was how far ahead they have to be in production, animation has a MUCH harsher lead time than live action does. also what is 'one cour or less'? I'm sure its a typo, but I cannot figure it out.

Mr March · April 23, 2009

The number of books and magazines about Macross only expounds upon the points Gubaba, Bri and I were making. Excessive ruminating on minutiae by geek culture, especially net culture, is NOT the quality benchmark for any pop culture product. In fact, it achieves the exact opposite, through false analogy, fallacy and faulty reasoning of production aspects that do not exist. Even a 25 episode series cannot detail the fictional world of Macross, which is why books and magazines are published to describe minutiae like the muzzle velocity of Mikhail's sniper rifle. We can't confuse world building with the limitations of the visual medium and more importantly, the format of Macross. Macross, like most anime, is style over substance made for an audience that is not looking for deep, meaningful narrative but mecha action, romance and drama all built upon a basic foundation of commentary, subtext and social relevance. Macross will never be "2001"; it's not even "24", neither of which would withstand the level of scrutiny being leveled at Frontier.

Bri · April 23, 2009

[...]
Not exactly sure what you were trying to say. I know that the show would have to be on a tight schedule, by its very nature, Anime air dates are damn unforgiving. What I was wondering was how far ahead they have to be in production, animation has a MUCH harsher lead time than live action does. also what is 'one cour or less'? I'm sure its a typo, but I cannot figure it out.

oh sorry, seems I forgot a sentence. I meant that given the discussion of Ohnogi changing sheryl mid production seems a bit unlikely given the pace of which an anime production is run.

Cour is a word used for the anime seasons which run parallel to the weather seasons (as in winter, spring, summer, autumn). One cour is 13 episodes, 2 cour is 26. etc

TV series are 50 or 26 episodes so can be called a 4 or 2 cour series, most OVAs are 12-14 so are a one cour series. Numbers can vary one or two due to holiday weeks.

Edited April 23, 2009 by Bri

Zinjo · April 24, 2009

The number of books and magazines about Macross only expounds upon the points Gubaba, Bri and I were making. Excessive ruminating on minutiae by geek culture, especially net culture, is NOT the quality benchmark for any pop culture product. In fact, it achieves the exact opposite, through false analogy, fallacy and faulty reasoning of production aspects that do not exist. Even a 25 episode series cannot detail the fictional world of Macross, which is why books and magazines are published to describe minutiae like the muzzle velocity of Mikhail's sniper rifle. We can't confuse world building with the limitations of the visual medium and more importantly, the format of Macross. Macross, like most anime, is style over substance made for an audience that is not looking for deep, meaningful narrative but mecha action, romance and drama all built upon a basic foundation of commentary, subtext and social relevance. Macross will never be "2001"; it's not even "24", neither of which would withstand the level of scrutiny being leveled at Frontier.

True, however memorable media always has a relevant hook for the audience. If the characters aren't believable or cannot be identified with, then interest in the entertainment is lost. Mac II & Mac Zero are perfect examples of how flash over drama just doesn't keep an audience's interest.

I believe the Sheryl arc in Frontier is what turned a formula Macross series into a hit. All the characters were 2 dimensional and bland. Then we get the fall of an idol and how she evolves because of it, and that's interesting drama. The Japanese people love a good drama, which is why Korean live action character dramas are so popular these days, because the Korean writers have a knack for writing compelling stories.

In the West, shows like Lost, Heroes, BSG, etc... are so well received because they are character dramas set in extraordinary circumstances. That is what good entertainment is all about. Rooting for your favorite character(s) to succeed against the odds.

Had Alto, Ranka AND Sheryl had similar dramatic arcs, the show could have surpassed even SDFM. The key to SDFM was that despite it being a super robot show, it had character development and growth. The only other show to do that at the time was Gundam. History has shown that because of this, the shows are near iconic in their lasting power. The most recent addition to that club has been Evangelion.

Edited April 24, 2009 by Zinjo

taksraven · April 24, 2009

The number of books and magazines about Macross only expounds upon the points Gubaba, Bri and I were making. Excessive ruminating on minutiae by geek culture, especially net culture, is NOT the quality benchmark for any pop culture product. In fact, it achieves the exact opposite, through false analogy, fallacy and faulty reasoning of production aspects that do not exist.

Next you will be saying that the Star Wars Expanded Universe is a big load of garbage mostly made by nerdy fans with no lives of their own. Too much.

Taksraven

Mr March · April 24, 2009

True, however memorable media always has a relevant hook for the audience. If the characters aren't believable or cannot be identified with, then interest in the entertainment is lost. Mac II & Mac Zero are perfect examples of how flash over drama just doesn't keep an audience's interest.
Had Alto, Ranka AND Sheryl had similar dramatic arcs, the show could have surpassed even SDFM. The key to SDFM was that despite it being a super robot show, it had character development and growth. The only other show to do that at the time was Gundam. History has shown that because of this, the shows are near iconic in their lasting power. The most recent addition to that club has been Evangelion.

That's because critics spend their time bitching about Alto's character design and throwing misplaced labels at the show like emo and yaoi, or my personal favorite, bishōnen (like this comes as some sort of revelation). There actually is plenty of Alto/Ranka/Sheryl character development in Frontier, if anyone takes the time to discuss it. But that requires an honest analysis of the show and it's obvious this thread will have none of that. Which is kinda the whole point

Oh, and SDF Macross was a real robot show :lol:

Gubaba · April 24, 2009

But that requires an honest analysis of the show and it's obvious this thread will have none of that.

Wait a sec...wasn't this thread about Hiroshi Ohnogi...?

I'm nearing the end of finishing translating my first Ohnogi Macross story ("Fancy Days" in Dreaming Prelude~My Fair Minmay, and it's really a lot of fun. Although Minmay's kind of a bitch to some poor schmuck she goes on a date with. And then there's the scene with Minmay's friends stretching their mouths with their fingers, which at first I totally didn't understand...until I did. :blink: )

Edited April 24, 2009 by Gubaba

Mercurial Morpheus · April 24, 2009

That's because critics spend their time bitching about Alto's character design and throwing misplaced labels at the show like emo and yaoi, or my personal favorite, bishōnen (like this comes as some sort of revelation). There actually is plenty of Alto/Ranka/Sheryl character development in Frontier, if anyone takes the time to discuss it. But that requires an honest analysis of the show and it's obvious this thread will have none of that. Which is kinda the whole point
Oh, and SDF Macross was a real robot show

Indeed. I thought that there was a lot of depth to Ranka and Alto as well, it was just not as pronounced as Sheryls. For that matter, I really don't think Sheryl's arc "evolved" her all that much. It really just revealed her hidden nature better and she became more easily influenced. There's hardly anything too deep about Sheryl's fall in terms of character development compared to the broader arcs of Ranka and Alto when you think about it. It's the compactness and 180 personality shift that just made it more obvious. Though it was one of the more interesting moments for her, and would've worked a lot better had one cared more for her beforehand. Alto maybe didn't "grow" very much, but when did learn more about him as it progressed and half the interest was working out his thoughts and motives. To act like Sheryl was the only character worth elevating the series is a gross injustice.

Though I'll agree that compelling character's tend to make a series, and it's probably why Frontier is always on the borderline of my interest. I just never connected to them like I did in SDFM.

Don't sell the thread short just yet, Mr. March. It's a lot more honest than some out there.

Mr March · April 24, 2009

Wait a sec...wasn't this thread about Hiroshi Ohnogi...?

Sure, if your read just the first post

Indeed. I thought that there was a lot of depth to Ranka and Alto as well, it was just not as pronounced as Sheryls. For that matter, I really don't think Sheryl's arc "evolved" her all that much. It really just revealed her hidden nature better and she became more easily influenced. There's hardly anything too deep about Sheryl's fall in terms of character development compared to the broader arcs of Ranka and Alto when you think about it. It's the compactness and 180 personality shift that just made it more obvious. Though it was one of the more interesting moments for her, and would've worked a lot better had one cared more for her beforehand. Alto maybe didn't "grow" very much, but when did learn more about him as it progressed and half the interest was working out his thoughts and motives. To act like Sheryl was the only character worth elevating the series is a gross injustice.
Though I'll agree that compelling character's tend to make a series, and it's probably why Frontier is always on the borderline of my interest. I just never connected to them like I did in SDFM.

Don't sell the thread short just yet, Mr. March. It's a lot more honest than some out there.

Don't misunderstand. No one selling this thread short. We're just discussing our opinions on the critical commentary, it's dubious derivation from the interview and the lack of a counter analysis. But I appreciate the thoughts on Frontier nonetheless, complaint threads and praise threads alike

Mercurial Morpheus · April 24, 2009

Oh a little honest criticism never hurt none. I much prefer a more cynacal take on things than rampent "they can do no wrong" fanboyism where people theorize which random gestures prove the ending wrong.

Swampstorm · April 26, 2009

I think the problem is actually the opposite - namely, that the criticism comes across as disingenuous. The tragic tale of friendship and betrayal in the OP is a red herring: it serves no purpose in the criticism of the story itself, but rather serves to create the illusion that the story that we saw in Frontier was not authentic. Frontier could just as well have been written by an infinite number of monkeys, but all other things being equal, that should hardly change the nature of our criticisms regarding the storyline itself.

The discussion of Mary Sue characters hinges on a similar question of authenticity. The original Mary Sue was created as a parody of ACC and SI fanfics of the time. As such, it represents a tension between canon and fanon, or alternatively, between the "authentic" content of the fictional universe and the content introduced by the fanfic writer.

This concept is applied in this thread in a similar fashion to imply that the "true" or "authentic" protagonists were ursurped from their rightful roles by the alleged Mary Sue(s). However, because these designations were arbitrary to begin with, this entire line of reasoning ended up as nothing more than a ~~cleverly~~ disguised rant about how certain characters didn't end up being as important to the plot as people thought they ought to be.

Of course, there's nothing wrong with disliking a series because the plot or characters didn't turn out the way you wanted them to. But I'd much rather see that simply stated up front.

Gubaba · April 26, 2009

I think the problem is actually the opposite - namely, that the criticism comes across as disingenuous. The tragic tale of friendship and betrayal in the OP is a red herring: it serves no purpose in the criticism of the story itself, but rather serves to create the illusion that the story that we saw in Frontier was not authentic. Frontier could just as well have been written by an infinite number of monkeys, but all other things being equal, that should hardly change the nature of our criticisms regarding the storyline itself.
The discussion of Mary Sue characters hinges on a similar question of authenticity. The original Mary Sue was created as a parody of ACC and SI fanfics of the time. As such, it represents a tension between canon and fanon, or alternatively, between the "authentic" content of the fictional universe and the content introduced by the fanfic writer.

This concept is applied in this thread in a similar fashion to imply that the "true" or "authentic" protagonists were ursurped from their rightful roles by the alleged Mary Sue(s). However, because these designations were arbitrary to begin with, this entire line of reasoning ended up as nothing more than a ~~cleverly~~ disguised rant about how certain characters didn't end up being as important to the plot as people thought they ought to be.

Of course, there's nothing wrong with disliking a series because the plot or characters didn't turn out the way you wanted them to. But I'd much rather see that simply stated up front.

Well, the "Ohnogi question" will be settled once and for all soon. But putting it aside for a moment, he seems to be, thanks to Shaloom's notes, a convenient place to focus whatever feelings you have about Sheryl or Ranka, and how they ended up.

Final Vegeta sees him as a usuper and a backstabber; on Animesuki, they seem to be ready to grant him sainthood (and rip Kawamori to shreds while they're at it).

But I wonder...if none of this stuff about Ohnogi had come to light (or been invented, as the case may be), if the little tidbit that during pre-production, Sheryl was originally envisioned as a bit player in the series (as was Minmay in SDFM, I hasten to repeat), would Frontier have seemed as disjointed (for good or ill) as many people are claiming now?

To me, watching it week-by-week, the story seemed to progress pretty naturally. Once I heard that Ohnogi had taken over, I looked back at those episodes to find things that might bear his stamp (of course, I wasn't really sure what "his stamp" would look like). If you want to find radical 90 degree turns, it's possible...but it may just be a natural part of the story. Reversals of fortune, sudden revelations, and shifts in focus are inherently dramatic...why, for example, does the fact that Sheryl is revealed to have an incurable disease mean that she was initially intended to die. Isn't it par for the course in science-fiction or fantasy stories to have an insolvable problem that gets solved by the end?

Anyway, my point is that external factors can alter your view of any story. With Frontier, I was enjoying Sheryl's character the best, until some particularly obnoxious Sheryl fans showed up here, hurling insults at anyone who disagreed with them that Ranka was worthless. Immediately, I became more of a Ranka fan, and didn't WANT Alto and Sheryl to end up together, simply because I don't like the idea of internet tough guys getting what they want.

That was not my original position, and if those jerks hadn't acting like greasy buttholes about the whole thing, I probably would've been disappointed by the triangle ending also. As it was, I was immensely satisfied by the final episode.

Now, the Sheryl fanatics really shouldn't have influenced my opinions about Frontier, but they did. Final Vegeta didn't like the ending of the show, and thought Ranka got the shaft, and lo! He's an "interview" that claims that someone did it that way ON PURPOSE to rescue a show that had "lost its way." Hell, I'd be pissed, too. I'm not sure I'd try to demonize the writer while I was at it, but hey, to each his own.

*

To return to the "Ohnogi Question" briefly, I have a long list of reasons why I think the whole thing is a particularly nasty hoax...but I have little real proof for it yet. Once we get our hands on Famitsu Issue 1035 (with the Kawamori interview where he supposedly revealed Ohnogi's role in the show), THEN we'll know for sure.

Mr March · April 26, 2009

I think the problem is actually the opposite - namely, that the criticism comes across as disingenuous. The tragic tale of friendship and betrayal in the OP is a red herring: it serves no purpose in the criticism of the story itself, but rather serves to create the illusion that the story that we saw in Frontier was not authentic. Frontier could just as well have been written by an infinite number of monkeys, but all other things being equal, that should hardly change the nature of our criticisms regarding the storyline itself.
The discussion of Mary Sue characters hinges on a similar question of authenticity. The original Mary Sue was created as a parody of ACC and SI fanfics of the time. As such, it represents a tension between canon and fanon, or alternatively, between the "authentic" content of the fictional universe and the content introduced by the fanfic writer.

This concept is applied in this thread in a similar fashion to imply that the "true" or "authentic" protagonists were ursurped from their rightful roles by the alleged Mary Sue(s). However, because these designations were arbitrary to begin with, this entire line of reasoning ended up as nothing more than a ~~cleverly~~ disguised rant about how certain characters didn't end up being as important to the plot as people thought they ought to be.

Of course, there's nothing wrong with disliking a series because the plot or characters didn't turn out the way you wanted them to. But I'd much rather see that simply stated up front.

That's basically what some of us have pointed out. The entire overwrought theory is criticism born from a false premise and uses a lot of unnecessary, pedantic text as window dressing after the fact.

But even if that bloated theory was reaching for legitimacy, it's still valid as an opinion piece if nothing else.

bishopcruz · April 26, 2009

The discussion of Mary Sue characters hinges on a similar question of authenticity. The original Mary Sue was created as a parody of ACC and SI fanfics of the time. As such, it represents a tension between canon and fanon, or alternatively, between the "authentic" content of the fictional universe and the content introduced by the fanfic writer.
This concept is applied in this thread in a similar fashion to imply that the "true" or "authentic" protagonists were ursurped from their rightful roles by the alleged Mary Sue(s). However, because these designations were arbitrary to begin with, this entire line of reasoning ended up as nothing more than a cleverly disguised rant about how certain characters didn't end up being as important to the plot as people thought they ought to be.

Just a quick note, Mary Sues, while have been given a name as a result of fan fiction are in no way shape or form limited to that format. They existed long before, and shall exist long after, I remember reading years back about the purported first Mary Sue, I think it was a novel wherin a cute little six year old girl helped a village, could do no wrong, was loved by all, and eventually dies of a disease, to be mourned forevermore by those she left behind. It was original work, yet the character had most of the trappings of the Mary Sue trope.

Mary Sue's exist in both original works and fanfiction, no genre is immune from them. Having an original work however tends to let the author get away with more before a character is considered as such. Weslely Crusher is probably the most famous occurance of the 'Canon Sue', but even he got outdone in later years. Both Ranka and Sheryl, and hell even Alto have a good bit of Mary Sue in them, probably more than most previous mains in a Macross (well Mylene likely comes close.) Ranka has it the worst, though Sheryl would likely look more Sue-ish without her foil around.

Does it matter? Only as much as you let it I suppose. Once the realization hits me, it's hard for me to shake. It doesn't go so far in Frontier as to make me hate the show by any stretch, I mean Ranka is by no means Alice, (Resident Evil movies, seriously, watch those and tell me she ISN'T a Mary Sue.) but certain things that happened in the show required me to suspend disbelief more than I would have liked. But it's Macross, and if I can learn to live with Guitar's that fly planes, I'll deal.

Yeah, bit of a digression, but moving on...

It's one of the reasons that Gubaba and I have been trying so hard to verify the interviews and the like, because once the information came into question, then all of the arguments about who crafted the final few episodes becomes moot. The story progressed as the story progressed, and it is greatly flawed, yet I very much enjoyed it. I think delving into the why of things can often be interesting, but often the why of the whole thing is simpler than people think.

But essentially what a lot of it comes down to is the shipping war, it's a shame that Gubaba had Sheryl ruined for him by some dickish fanboys, but I suppose that that par the course for shipping. At least neither girl had to die for the ship.

I think the bulk of complaints though, shipping included, can probably come down to the following: The storyline was a little too ambitious for the number of episodes, the writers often times didn't sweat the details, and there were stretches of episodes that could have been paced better. The loose threads left over at the series finale are byproducts of the above.

Mercurial Morpheus · April 26, 2009

But I wonder...if none of this stuff about Ohnogi had come to light (or been invented, as the case may be), if the little tidbit that during pre-production, Sheryl was originally envisioned as a bit player in the series (as was Minmay in SDFM, I hasten to repeat), would Frontier have seemed as disjointed (for good or ill) as many people are claiming now?
To me, watching it week-by-week, the story seemed to progress pretty naturally. Once I heard that Ohnogi had taken over, I looked back at those episodes to find things that might bear his stamp (of course, I wasn't really sure what "his stamp" would look like). If you want to find radical 90 degree turns, it's possible...but it may just be a natural part of the story. Reversals of fortune, sudden revelations, and shifts in focus are inherently dramatic...why, for example, does the fact that Sheryl is revealed to have an incurable disease mean that she was initially intended to die. Isn't it par for the course in science-fiction or fantasy stories to have an insolvable problem that gets solved by the end?

Oh, of course it would, it just wouldn't be as focused. My own week by week watch through had it's own questions. I remember wondering a bit about Sheryl and Alto's relationship early on. It seemed like they softened her a bit. I don't think having three versions of the pilot helped much either. As for Sheryl's impending demise, I was hearing of that long before her actual disease. There's also several points where she could've easily exited the show, at least for a while. Heck, we even have an early episode entitled "Bye-Bye Sheryl." It's mostly conjecture sure, but who knows.

Anyway, my point is that external factors can alter your view of any story. With Frontier, I was enjoying Sheryl's character the best, until some particularly obnoxious Sheryl fans showed up here, hurling insults at anyone who disagreed with them that Ranka was worthless. Immediately, I became more of a Ranka fan, and didn't WANT Alto and Sheryl to end up together, simply because I don't like the idea of internet tough guys getting what they want.
That was not my original position, and if those jerks hadn't acting like greasy buttholes about the whole thing, I probably would've been disappointed by the triangle ending also. As it was, I was immensely satisfied by the final episode.

Now, the Sheryl fanatics really shouldn't have influenced my opinions about Frontier, but they did. Final Vegeta didn't like the ending of the show, and thought Ranka got the shaft, and lo! He's an "interview" that claims that someone did it that way ON PURPOSE to rescue a show that had "lost its way." Hell, I'd be pissed, too. I'm not sure I'd try to demonize the writer while I was at it, but hey, to each his own.

You echo my own experience here, though I can't say I was ever big on Sheryl (nor did I like Ranka much early on either, so it was always balanced there). I often wonder how my POV would be had I just marathoned the show or never bothered to read any threads here. The shipping really got out of hand, and it is a little silly to blame it, but one can't help it. What really affected it was having to reiterate stuff. I remember making a half serious statement. Being called on it brought about having to better explain the comment. In the course of things, a throwaway comment has me suddenly thinking there's a much more serious misgiving on my part. It just had me thinking harder about something I might've just thrown away. Though what rather peeved me was one fandom criticizing the other girl for faults their own had and vice versa. It is a bit ridiculous to be so impacted by it, but it's hard not to if you expect to grant others opinions themselves. Though I'd like to think I never got to the point where I was against a SherylxAlto ending just to spite the fans. In the end, I thought it ended as it should have too. Oh, and while no girl had to "die for our ship", I certainly saw the cries for it.

It is rather premature to heap blame on someone without much known. The criticism may have disingenuous origins, but a lot of keen observations can still be culled from it. I also wouldn't write some of FV's "mary sue" bits as simply being bitter at how some characters wound up. It might not be to that level, but a lot of characters wound up having far less impact than they should've, particularly Alto. Heck, Michel sort of got reduced to a mere plot device in the end.

Edited April 26, 2009 by Mercurial Morpheus

Killer Robot · April 26, 2009

I'm glad I wasn't reading the forums when it was airing, since in retrospect the shipping and some of the crazier speculation might have hurt things for me too, one way or the other. All I had until the final was discussing with some friends, and reading SA's discussion thread someone linked me to. That was when I came here, and I still haven't looked at Animesuki. Maybe that's why I don't especially hate anyone in the cast, I don't know.

Mr March · April 26, 2009

Actually, I must say that I really enjoyed watching Macross Frontier during broadcast and interacting on the forums, warts and all. Yes, you get a lot of hating and silly debates, but you also get a lot of positive feedback and shared enjoyment. Since I almost never watch anime with anyone in my social circles, it was nice to be "among fans" when Macross Frontier was airing. Plus, the forums gave me access to all kind of information for my website and was thus I could use that information to help other fans stay up to speed. All in all, it was a rather enjoyable and unique experience. I'd never followed a new anime series like this before.

Edited April 26, 2009 by Mr March

Mercurial Morpheus · April 26, 2009

Oh yeah, it usually is like that. As I've said, I enjoyed R2 a lot more because of the insights I read. There were pros to watching it week by week, but there were definitely cons too, and I didn't really hang around for every episode either. It's sort of a luck of the draw thing.

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Hiroshi Ohnogi and Macross Frontier

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