Graham Posted December 29, 2006 Share Posted December 29, 2006 I'm gonna resist conversion for as long as possible. I'm not really a videophile and I'm quite happy with the video and audio quality of DVDs. I'm certainly not going to commit to a new system until a winner becomes clear. No more VHS/Betamax fiasco thank you very much. Graham Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Shade Posted December 30, 2006 Share Posted December 30, 2006 I'm gonna resist conversion for as long as possible. I'm not really a videophile and I'm quite happy with the video and audio quality of DVDs. I'm certainly not going to commit to a new system until a winner becomes clear. No more VHS/Betamax fiasco thank you very much. Graham And who knows, BD & HD-DVD might end up being nothing more than the 2000's equivalent of Laser Discs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Togo Posted December 30, 2006 Share Posted December 30, 2006 And who knows, BD & HD-DVD might end up being nothing more than the 2000's equivalent of Laser Discs. Exactly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eugimon Posted January 4, 2007 Share Posted January 4, 2007 apparantly, LG is coming out with a dual read HD-DVD/BluRay player. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cyde01 Posted January 4, 2007 Share Posted January 4, 2007 (edited) eugimon beat me to it. there's speculation that LG might show this thing off at CES this weekend. of course, this isn't the first time someone's announced plans for a dual format player and nothing ever materialized then, so we'll have to wait and see till this weekend if LG's claims are credible. oh, and i don't think blu-ray or hd-dvd will end up like laser disc. HDTVs are a hot commodity right now and probably will continue to be so. as such, there is a high amount of consumer interest in hi def content. the only reason they're not buying blu-ray or HD-DVD yet is because of the high costs and the format war. eventually, when these factors go away, consumers who own hi def sets are gonna get tired of upconverted DVDs (i personally think upconverting is good enough unless you have a huge screen, but average consumers go for hype, not picture quality). Edited January 4, 2007 by cyde01 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sketchley Posted January 5, 2007 Share Posted January 5, 2007 http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/6230925.stm BBC reports that they will both be there. Agreed that HD-TV is here to stay. Almost every TV channel here in Japan is broadcasting in High Vision (the local name of HDTV) and the only TV sets one can by new are HDTV types. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JB0 Posted January 5, 2007 Share Posted January 5, 2007 eventually, when these factors go away, consumers who own hi def sets are gonna get tired of upconverted DVDs (i personally think upconverting is good enough unless you have a huge screen, but average consumers go for hype, not picture quality). I think the "can't see HD unless you have a big screen" argument is crap, personally. I can see the difference between 640*480 and 1024*768 on a 20" PC monitor, why should a 20" TV be any different? (aside from historical issues with poorly-focused and overly-bright CRTs that are no longer valid) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eugimon Posted January 5, 2007 Share Posted January 5, 2007 I think the "can't see HD unless you have a big screen" argument is crap, personally. I can see the difference between 640*480 and 1024*768 on a 20" PC monitor, why should a 20" TV be any different? (aside from historical issues with poorly-focused and overly-bright CRTs that are no longer valid) agreed. Any HDTV will benefit from having an HD source. regardless of size. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cyde01 Posted January 5, 2007 Share Posted January 5, 2007 I think the "can't see HD unless you have a big screen" argument is crap, personally. Can I state an opinion without getting disrespected? We've been through this before. I did not say "you can't see HD unless you have a big screen." Notice I said upconverting. If you have an upconverted DVD you will be hard pressed to see the difference between that and native 1080 video on a screen that's only 20 inches. You didn't say my arguments were crap last time we had this discussion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoryHolmes Posted January 5, 2007 Share Posted January 5, 2007 Can I state an opinion without getting disrespected? On this website? No. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Togo Posted January 5, 2007 Share Posted January 5, 2007 Oh look, a kitty! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bandit29 Posted January 5, 2007 Share Posted January 5, 2007 If the format war couldn't get any worse... Warner Bros is releasing the "total HD DVD". It will have both formats on one disc... and they've also patented a disc that will hold all three formats, standard DVD and both HD formats.... http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070104/ap_on_hi_te/high_def_dvd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat S Posted January 5, 2007 Share Posted January 5, 2007 I have a 720p version of GITS Innocence that fits on a single DVD-R. This movie looks amazing in even 720p. They did a great transfer. I recently saw the first few episodes of Stand Alone Complex in HD, they also blew the DVD's out of the water. You absolutely can tell a higher def transfer from standard. It did significantly improve the visual experience for me, and I was quite amazed the entire time becuase I'd never seen anime look quite like that. I would love to see DYRL or Macross Plus in HD. I'd hold off judement until you'vet seen the difference between HD and SD anime on a good setup. About the Blu-Ray vs HD-DVD thing, I bought a PS3, I could care less who wins the "war" because, Blu-Ray will have plenty of titles (it already does), and either the PS3 will burn out, or it will be time to buy a PS4, and I'll just upgrade then. Also, I'll be playing games for those 5 or 6 years with it. Just my .02 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oihan Posted January 9, 2007 Share Posted January 9, 2007 (edited) How much does the HD box set cost and is it only on BluRay? Edited January 10, 2007 by Oihan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JB0 Posted January 10, 2007 Share Posted January 10, 2007 If the format war couldn't get any worse... Warner Bros is releasing the "total HD DVD". It will have both formats on one disc... and they've also patented a disc that will hold all three formats, standard DVD and both HD formats.... http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070104/ap_on_hi_te/high_def_dvd That's actually good. It ensures that no matter who wins the format war, your disk is future-proof. Apparently there's gonna be a HD-DVD/BluRay player at CES this year. Guess whoever was throwing a fit decided to knock it off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cyde01 Posted January 10, 2007 Share Posted January 10, 2007 (edited) yes, it's official folks. LG's combination blu-ray/HD-DVD/DVD player will be selling the first week of Feb. for $1199. unfortunately, it's HDMI output will be HDMI 1.2 not 1.3. the reason there were no dual format players until now was not because of a licensing problem, but because many manufacturers thought a dual format player would be way to complicated to manufacture and thus be way too expensive. but we the consumers all know that prices for consumer electronics eventually fall. hopefully combination players will become cheaper in the not-so-distant future. then everyone will be able to enjoy their gits innocence blu-ray edition without fear! Edited January 10, 2007 by cyde01 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JB0 Posted January 10, 2007 Share Posted January 10, 2007 the reason there were no dual format players until now was not because of a licensing problem, but because many manufacturers thought a dual format player would be way to complicated to manufacture and thus be way too expensive. LG and Samsung BOTH announced dual-format devices last year. Then canceled them for no visible reason. When the media started asking, one of the manufacturers explicitly stated that they didn't make the combo because they couldn't get a license from one of the groups. I THINK it was Samsung, but I can't find the article. They didn't specify which group bounced them, either. It was possible both sides did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaijin Posted January 10, 2007 Share Posted January 10, 2007 yes, it's official folks. LG's combination blu-ray/HD-DVD/DVD player will be selling the first week of Feb. for $1199. unfortunately, it's HDMI output will be HDMI 1.2 not 1.3. It's actually not a full HD DVD player. It doesn't support some of the standard features HD DVD provides. I wouldn't be surprised if this thing never really launches, or if DVD forum makes a big stink with LG over it since the Blu-ray side of it is fully functional. And...any "combo player" or multi format disk, while seemingly ideal...will drag the war out longer and confuse people even more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mechwolf Posted January 11, 2007 Share Posted January 11, 2007 And that is why I'll wait until there is a clear winner (or the HD player for XBox 360 goes super cheap, which it won't), I'll just continue to buy standard DVD. Yes, both new formats are better, but I'm just old enough to remember the fiasco that is Beta Max. I also do not have a HDTV yet anyways. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sketchley Posted January 11, 2007 Share Posted January 11, 2007 Well... that new multi-player looks tempting. Though, it really depends on what titles are available for which format; because right now, the only titles I am remotely interested in acquiring, are in Blue-Ray, and I am already tempted by the PS3, because it'll play the PS1 and PS2 Macross games that I have. At least for me, I'm going for the Blue-ray (in addition to the above, there's the larger amounts of data storage available on them...) Nevertheless, a new TV comes first and there's no rush... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JB0 Posted January 11, 2007 Share Posted January 11, 2007 It's actually not a full HD DVD player. It doesn't support some of the standard features HD DVD provides. I wouldn't be surprised if this thing never really launches, or if DVD forum makes a big stink with LG over it since the Blu-ray side of it is fully functional. Is it? I know they recently had a BluRay release that only works on PS3, because the current standalone players don't support BD-JAVA(which, as the name implies, is a variant of the Java language). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaijin Posted January 11, 2007 Share Posted January 11, 2007 (edited) Is it? I know they recently had a BluRay release that only works on PS3, because the current standalone players don't support BD-JAVA(which, as the name implies, is a variant of the Java language). Well, I suppose that remains to be seen but it officially supports it whereas, on the HD DVD side...they aren't at all. That infamous disc BTW will play on Panasonic and Samsungs as well. The Sony and Pioneer Elite had some trouble though as they don't have updated firmware (the Sony is a clone of the Pioneer). The stand alones do support BD Java...some of them required firmware updates to bring them up to date though. The LG combo player is missing support for the whole HDi layer of HD DVD...which would mean the disc would theoretically play the video on it...and that's it. No smart menus, etc. It's an odd choice to not have a full working HD DVD player in one touted to be the best of both worlds. For that $1200 price, you could get a $500 PS3 Blu-ray player/game console, a stand alone HD DVD player, and have $200 to buy discs as well. Edit: Though I suppose it's better than this abomination...not to mention the horrid colors together: Hey, you got HD DVD in my Blu-ray...no you got BD in my HD DVD!!! Edited January 11, 2007 by Gaijin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cyde01 Posted January 11, 2007 Share Posted January 11, 2007 (edited) yes, yes i know samsung and LG had announced dual format players in the past. although i hadn't heard anything saying why. and i don't think dual format players or dual format discs is a bad thing. i don't think it will drag the war out longer, it will rather cause the war to end in a cease fire. sure things will still be confusing, but look at DVD-R and DVD+R. that's an example of a format war that ended peaceably because of dual format players/burners. today DVD-R and DVD+R coexist with no problems. no reason why BD and HD-DVD can't coexist if dual format players become cheap enough. either way i will be in wait and see mode for another year or more until things it become a little more predictable. Edited January 11, 2007 by cyde01 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaijin Posted January 11, 2007 Share Posted January 11, 2007 (edited) yes, yes i know samsung and LG had announced dual format players in the past. although i hadn't heard anything saying why. and i don't think dual format players or dual format discs is a bad thing. i don't think it will drag the war out longer, it will rather cause the war to end in a cease fire. sure things will still be confusing, but look at DVD-R and DVD+R. that's an example of a format war that ended peaceably because of dual format players/burners. today DVD-R and DVD+R coexist with no problems. no reason why BD and HD-DVD can't coexist if dual format players become cheap enough. either way i will be in wait and see mode for another year or more until things it become a little more predictable. Dual format players and discs are way more expensive than the stand alones. You would be paying for one side most would never use. One proprietary format is one thing...TWO is just nuts. HD DVD combo discs from Warner are expensive as it is...a dual format dual layer flipper with HD DVD and Blu-ray sounds a lot more expensive. And DVD+ and DVD-R's were and still are a major pain for literally hundreds of thousands of legacy players. I can't count how many people I've run into that don't have a player that will play either or. A recording format is one thing...having 2 separate types of pre- recorded discs in the stores is still confusing to most and divides studios resources as well. Since most of the studios are backing BD I leaned in that direction. HD DVD's one studio that was exclusive to them isn't quite as rosy as it once was regarding their HD DVD releases: http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/Uni...m_Universal/429 Edited January 11, 2007 by Gaijin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bandit29 Posted January 12, 2007 Share Posted January 12, 2007 The porn industry has made up its mind CES 2007: HD DVD versus Blu-ray - The porn industry says HD DVD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JB0 Posted January 12, 2007 Share Posted January 12, 2007 Well, I suppose that remains to be seen but it officially supports it whereas, on the HD DVD side...they aren't at all. That infamous disc BTW will play on Panasonic and Samsungs as well. The Sony and Pioneer Elite had some trouble though as they don't have updated firmware (the Sony is a clone of the Pioneer). The stand alones do support BD Java...some of them required firmware updates to bring them up to date though. Ah. I'd missed that. I was hearing something along the lines of "Nothing but the PS3 supports it right now" with firmware as a potential update. The LG combo player is missing support for the whole HDi layer of HD DVD...which would mean the disc would theoretically play the video on it...and that's it. No smart menus, etc. It's an odd choice to not have a full working HD DVD player in one touted to be the best of both worlds. Indeed... Kinda makes you wonder why even bother? Dual format players and discs are way more expensive than the stand alones. You would be paying for one side most would never use. One proprietary format is one thing...TWO is just nuts. HD DVD combo discs from Warner are expensive as it is...a dual format dual layer flipper with HD DVD and Blu-ray sounds a lot more expensive. Why is a dual-format player "way more expensive"? They're just computers. Heck, the early BluRay players were literally P4 PCs in a pretty box(I'd hope they've moved to Cores now). Both formats use an identical laser wavelength, so the drive mech is the same. And that's the only part that needs changing if your hardware is programmable and has enough power. Aside from the licensing fees, which aren't exactly breaking the bank, and software, which I assume a dual-format company already has for both formats, I don't see any reason for a dual-format player to cost more than a dedicated player for the more expensive side. BluRay players cost more than HD-DVD right now, so... slight premium over BluRay only, to cover the HD-DVD license and cost of a second set of software. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uxi Posted January 12, 2007 Share Posted January 12, 2007 (edited) You mean the Tosh HD-DVD players were P4 PC's in a pretty box (well the XA1 is a pretty box... the A1 pretty plain). The LG player is more expensive than a couple different options of separate BD and HD-DVD standalones, much less game consoles. There are conflicting reports of what exactly is happening regarding the disc and features in question. FWIW, Sony claims the issue is with their player and will be fixed by firmware update while Pioneer claims it's a problem with the disc itself. I still haven't seen GitS BD yet, but I haven't exactly been looking. Maybe this Saturday I'll hit up Frank & Sons again for a YF-19 (I passed on the offer for $180 this last saturday... i'm hoping for at least $175 on principle ) and will see if any of the vendors there have it. Edited January 12, 2007 by Uxi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JB0 Posted January 12, 2007 Share Posted January 12, 2007 You mean the Tosh HD-DVD players were P4 PC's in a pretty box (well the XA1 is a pretty box... the A1 pretty plain). I don't know about HD-DVD. Just BluRay. Which by some accounts is more processor-intensive when pushed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sketchley Posted January 12, 2007 Share Posted January 12, 2007 (edited) Both formats use an identical laser wavelength, Uh... different wavelengths. It's the main reason that different formats exist, and different amounts of data can be stored on the two variations. Blue-ray has a smaller wavelength, so it is able to read/write in a smaller amount of space than the HD-DVD. I've also heard that the beams read at different depths, which is the main reason why these multi-players are an option. DVD, HD-DVD and Blue-Ray are at 3 different depths, readable via three different wavelengths, thus they can cohabit the same disc. If you are talking about HD-DVD and DVD, then yes, they are similar enough that factories don't have to retool very much before switching between them. I'm not a technical expert, but it appears that that is one of the main selling points of HD-DVD (to the manufacturing sector, not the consumer.) http://www.engadget.com/2005/09/19/blu-ray...ion-s-division/ A nice image: And more info can be found here: http://www.google.ca/search?hl=ja&q=HD...ser+wavelengths Edited January 12, 2007 by sketchley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cyde01 Posted January 13, 2007 Share Posted January 13, 2007 From engadget.com: So here's the technical nitty gritty before we drop the graphs n' charts on ya. Both systems use the same kind of 405nm wavelength blue-violet laser, but their optics differ in two ways. Since the Blu-ray disc has a tighter track pitch (the single thread of data that spirals from the inside of the disc all the way out-think grooves on a 12-inch vinyl single vs. an Elvis Costello full-length album), it can hold more pits (those microscopic 0s and 1s) on the same size disc as HD DVD even with a laser of the same wavelength. The differing track pitch of the Blu-ray disc makes its pickup apertures differ, however - 0.65 for HD DVD vs. 0.85 for Blu-ray - thus also making the two pickups technically incompatible despite using lasers of the same type. HD DVD discs also have a different surface layer (the clear plastic layer on the surface of the data - what you get fingerprints and scratches on) from Blu-ray discs. HD DVD use a 0.6 mm-thick surface layer, the same as DVD, while Blu-ray has a much smaller 0.1mm layer to help enable the laser to focus with that 0.85 aperture. Herein lies the issues associated with the higher cost of Blu-ray discs. This thinner surface layer is what makes the discs cost more; because Blu-ray discs do not share the same surface layer thickness of DVDs, costly production facilities must be modified or replaced in order to produce the discs. A special hard coating must also be applied to Blu-ray discs, so their surface is sufficiently resilient enough to protect the data a mere 0.1mm beneath - this also drives the cost up. The added benefit of keeping the data layer closer to the surface, however, is more room for extra layers. http://www.engadget.com/2005/09/19/blu-ray...ion-s-division/ In other words, both players use the same wave length blue laser. The difference is the width of the grooves in the disc. Blu-ray has skinnier grooves, so the data layer has to be pushed closer to the laser. Even with the data layer closer to the laser, the laser needs a special lens to be able to focus on the data layer. A dual format player needs a normal lens to play back HD-DVD discs and a special blu-ray lens to playback blu-ray. These special lenses have been in such limited supply that they have caused a shortage of standalone blu-ray players and PS3s. Thus, the lens plays a key role in the cost of manufacturing these players. I am inclined to agree with JBO, though. Today, the manufacturing process for a dual format player is expensive. But as soon as the manufacturing process for the special blu-ray lens matures, prices of dual format players should fall, along with standalone players. However, according to Cnet having to pay royalties to both parties is a bigger deal than it may seem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sketchley Posted January 13, 2007 Share Posted January 13, 2007 Eh? It has to be something more than that... differing lens focal point shouldn't be what's causing this format war. Though, in a way, it does explain the 'ease' in which a multi-player can be made... I stand corrected. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JB0 Posted January 13, 2007 Share Posted January 13, 2007 Uh... different wavelengths. It's the main reason that different formats exist, and different amounts of data can be stored on the two variations. Blue-ray has a smaller wavelength, so it is able to read/write in a smaller amount of space than the HD-DVD. Your own link says HD-DVD and BluRay use the same wavelength. I've also heard that the beams read at different depths, which is the main reason why these multi-players are an option. DVD, HD-DVD and Blue-Ray are at 3 different depths, readable via three different wavelengths, thus they can cohabit the same disc. Depth has a lot to do with it. BluRay's data is VERY close to the disk surface to allow for tighter laser focus, and thus smaller "pits." It also made it really easy to kill your disk before the scratch-resistant coatings came up. Fortunately, all 3 formats are designed for multi-layer, so none of them NEED to hit the reflector directly. If they were all single-layer formats like CD, it'd send everything straight to hell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cyde01 Posted January 13, 2007 Share Posted January 13, 2007 Eh? It has to be something more than that... differing lens focal point shouldn't be what's causing this format war. Though, in a way, it does explain the 'ease' in which a multi-player can be made... I stand corrected. haha you're right. MONEY is causing this format war! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sketchley Posted January 13, 2007 Share Posted January 13, 2007 Your own link says HD-DVD and BluRay use the same wavelength. Golly gee... cyde01 already posted to that effect - but at least he was polite enough to be discreet about it (thank you cyde01.) The only addition I have is that I was under the impression that upgrading pre-existing DVD manufacturing facilities to HD-DVD was easier to do than with Blu-ray, because of the similarities between HDDVD and DVD - DVD using red lasers et al. Now I know that it has nothing to do with lasers, and everything to do with the thickness (depth) of the scratch resistant laser - and knowing is half the battle. Go Joe! Oh, and today I was talking with my coworker about the differences between the two formats - and once again I must vote for Blu-ray, simply because it is easier to say, and the name does have a connection to how it functions. HD-DVD is just another confusing jumble of letterfied jargon that tended to get an extra D in the middle. Yes, more alphabet soup to add to the difficulties of attempting to explain the difference between DVD-R and DVD+R, etc., etc, etc. in a foreign language. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaijin Posted January 17, 2007 Share Posted January 17, 2007 I was right...this LG player combo thing prob won't see the light of day: http://gear.ign.com/articles/755/755809p1.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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