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Robotech and HG license debates

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Eh, what's wrylac still doing here?

Keeping it real... B)

And still trolling. :ph34r:

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Humm...I've gotten the impression it was the other way around.  BW didn't think HG needed to be any part of it.  Toycom paying HG would have to some degree substantiated the claim HG was making, that foreign releases needed to go through them.  Toycom (who did read HG’s contract) says, “no prob, we’ll pay HG too.”  BW says, “over our dead body.”  BW threatens to pull license from Toycom and Toycom drops license cause it ain’t gonna happen with BW pitching a fit.  It doesn’t make sense to me that George has such a good relationship with HG now if they were the ones to screw him in the past.

I think the question is, why the change of heart by BW?  I have an answer but I doubt it’s one you want to hear.

Well, to prove the point that there's never too many different ways to hear a story...

My impression was that HG told Toycom to stop infringing on their license. Toycom goes to BigWest and asks "Hey, wassup wid dis?" and BigWest replies "News to us!*" and then they started probing around through the secret channels that are normally found throughout the Japanese Anime industry and find out that, yes, suddenly (for it is sudden no matter how you put a spin on it) HG IS claiming all Macross as theirs. Hence, the legal wrangling with Tatsunoko begins to determine whom had what rights to sell overseas.

Menawhile, George Sohn, in his fervent desire to copy an outdated, extremely bad (see: chunky monkey) VF design leaves Toycom and starts Toynami. The company who walks hand in hand with HG.

BigWest hasn't ever had a change of heart. I think you're sorely mistaken there. BigWest has consistently licensed out other Macross projects excluding the International rights to the TV Series (held by Tatsunoko and, apparently, sold to or shared with HG) with ne'er a peep from Tatsunoko or HG. And, I apologize, but HG's "excuses" for not stopping them in the past is utter horsesh!t.

You know the question is: Why the change of heart by HG? They never tried to stop the licensing of other Macross projects before. Hmmm... not until Macross started regaining it's popularity here due to it's upcoming 20th anniversary. And the fact that HG suddenly "decides" that all of Macross is their's... with RT's 15th anniversary cropping up?

I'm guessing that HG simply knew that with Macross' 20th anniversay, some other companies would start trying to bring over more Macross stuff to coincide with the event. Stuff that would steal the RT thunder (see: whimper). They started early by making trouble and trying to scare off companies. It worked with Toycom, because Mr. Sohn is yellow. However, HG thought they could try it again with the online retailers.

Oops, no go.

HG, in their refusal to prove their ownership, proved to anyone with a brain that something was rotten in Denmark. HG refused a direct challenge to their claims and, hence, basically gave permission for the retailers to sell away.

Meanwhile, in the Batcave ®, BigWest and Tatsunoko are duking it out in court over who owns what (excluding the bathroom, that's communal).

BTW- I've never met the Mr. Sohn, but considering the crappy knock-offs Toynami has offered, I'm believe he's more of a shrewd business man than a toy visionary. And I'm sure we can all think of many cases where business profitability far outweighs previous negative experience.

*in Japanese, of course.

edit-spelling

Edited by the white drew carey

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Eh, what's wrylac still doing here?

Keeping it real...

...stupid.

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Eh, what's wrylac still doing here?

Being civil unless you guys want otherwise. :ph34r:

I was just about to say that. It looks people want to start trouble. Unneeded comments and name calling is how things get out of hand. Things have been civil and calm. Lets not ruin that.

Edited by Effect

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...

Fo shizzle. ;)

:o I'm jive impaired, what does that mean?

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:o I'm jive impaired, what does that mean?

You know....I have no idea. I think it mean I agree, or something.

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:o  I'm jive impaired, what does that mean?

You know....I have no idea. I think it mean I agree, or something.

LOL. Cool.

Someday, if I am ever in prison I will ask someone what it means.

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Eh, what's wrylac still doing here?

Oh... he found a loophole in dogmatic law and got back into heaven.

:rolleyes:

but wouldn't that negate all of existence??

fo shizzel is the jive way of saying: for sure.

heres a practical application:

hey snoop dogg, do you like 40's?

snoop: fo shizzel, Isamu-izzle.

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...

fo shizzel is the jive way of saying: for sure.

heres a practical application:

hey snoop dogg, do you like 40's?

snoop: fo shizzel, Isamu-izzle.

Wow thanks... Have you been in jail?

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nah, i just remember seeing one snoop dogg video where he does this whole conversation with himself in that jive speech. it was funny since there were subtitles.

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A couple of related things gleaned from Gale Databases' Business & Company Resource Center:

1) Remember how Tommy Yune said that HG "wasn't minding the store" because of a headhunting raid by Haim Saban? That may be a little far from the truth. In an article published in Broadcasting, Jan 4, 1993 vol. 123 num. 1 p38 ("The return of Harmony Gold,") Alan Letz in 1993 said that HG's hiatus from broadcasting in the early '90s (and, I assume, other business concerns such as their alleged license for Macross) had much more to do with a lack of business, as well as a crisis of judgement on how to market what few licences they did have. I won't publish the entire article (they take away library cards for things like that), but here's a relevant quote from Mr. Letz:

"'We're not quite sure yet what the best avenue for this product is, over-the-air television or cable,' said Alan Letz, director of sales at Harmony Gold. 'The problem with syndication, as we found out five years ago, is you really need to keep the product pipeline filled,' to justify the staff needed to sell market by market, he said."

Also from Variety of this year (Mar. 24, 2003), they're looking to sell RT to syndication again.

2) It looks like Bandai REALLY has little to fear if they were to start exporting chunky monkeys. Also from the same database, here's how the two companies shape up:

Sales:

Bandai: $1,922,800,000 per annum, with a yearly profit averaging $90,000,000 p.a.

HG: total Sales estimated at $14,000,000 p.a., no profit data.

Employees:

Bandai: 2,720

HG: 35.

Certainly HG could make some trouble for Bandai (and if HG can argue the license issue successfully, possibly still win), but woe betide HG if they try to launch a battle of attrition against Bandai in court.

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:o  I'm jive impaired, what does that mean?

You know....I have no idea. I think it mean I agree, or something.

It means "For sure" and even"That's cool", 'that's alright', That's great" etc etc.

EDIT: Nevermind, Isamu covered it.

Edited by Jemstone

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Jemstone, are you and mswump twins separated at birth? :p

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Jemstone, are you and mswump twins separated at birth? :p

All you need is some general knowledge in the Hip-Hop culture :D

Off topic: Welcome Back Jemstone.

OK. I'm done in this topic.

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Jemstone, are you and mswump twins separated at birth? :p

Yeah, what's up with that extremely unflattering avatar? It's much too hairy to fit my mental picture of Jemstone. Bring back the "Meltran squishes the dismembered Zentran head" avatar!

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ummkaayyy....first it's a thread bout HG license then it's name calling then its HG license again....man this thread is topsy turvy.

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Jemstone, are you and mswump twins separated at birth? :p

Yeah, what's up with that extremely unflattering avatar? It's much too hairy to fit my mental picture of Jemstone. Bring back the "Meltran squishes the dismembered Zentran head" avatar!

Yeah, that creepy guy avatar is, well kinda creepy.

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Humm...I've gotten the impression it was the other way around.  BW didn't think HG needed to be any part of it.  Toycom paying HG would have to some degree substantiated the claim HG was making, that foreign releases needed to go through them.  Toycom (who did read HG’s contract) says, “no prob, we’ll pay HG too.”  BW says, “over our dead body.”  BW threatens to pull license from Toycom and Toycom drops license cause it ain’t gonna happen with BW pitching a fit.  It doesn’t make sense to me that George has such a good relationship with HG now if they were the ones to screw him in the past.

I think the question is, why the change of heart by BW?  I have an answer but I doubt it’s one you want to hear.

Well, to prove the point that there's never too many different ways to hear a story...

My impression was that HG told Toycom to stop infringing on their license. Toycom goes to BigWest and asks "Hey, wassup wid dis?" and BigWest replies "News to us!*" and then they started probing around through the secret channels that are normally found throughout the Japanese Anime industry and find out that, yes, suddenly (for it is sudden no matter how you put a spin on it) HG IS claiming all Macross as theirs. Hence, the legal wrangling with Tatsunoko begins to determine whom had what rights to sell overseas.

Menawhile, George Sohn, in his fervent desire to copy an outdated, extremely bad (see: chunky monkey) VF design leaves Toycom and starts Toynami. The company who walks hand in hand with HG.

BigWest hasn't ever had a change of heart. I think you're sorely mistaken there. BigWest has consistently licensed out other Macross projects excluding the International rights to the TV Series (held by Tatsunoko and, apparently, sold to or shared with HG) with ne'er a peep from Tatsunoko or HG. And, I apologize, but HG's "excuses" for not stopping them in the past is utter horsesh!t.

You know the question is: Why the change of heart by HG? They never tried to stop the licensing of other Macross projects before. Hmmm... not until Macross started regaining it's popularity here due to it's upcoming 20th anniversary. And the fact that HG suddenly "decides" that all of Macross is their's... with RT's 15th anniversary cropping up?

I'm guessing that HG simply knew that with Macross' 20th anniversay, some other companies would start trying to bring over more Macross stuff to coincide with the event. Stuff that would steal the RT thunder (see: whimper). They started early by making trouble and trying to scare off companies. It worked with Toycom, because Mr. Sohn is yellow. However, HG thought they could try it again with the online retailers.

Oops, no go.

HG, in their refusal to prove their ownership, proved to anyone with a brain that something was rotten in Denmark. HG refused a direct challenge to their claims and, hence, basically gave permission for the retailers to sell away.

Meanwhile, in the Batcave ®, BigWest and Tatsunoko are duking it out in court over who owns what (excluding the bathroom, that's communal).

BTW- I've never met the Mr. Sohn, but considering the crappy knock-offs Toynami has offered, I'm believe he's more of a shrewd business man than a toy visionary. And I'm sure we can all think of many cases where business profitability far outweighs previous negative experience.

*in Japanese, of course.

edit-spelling

The point isn't what HG failed to do in the past, the point is what they are able to enforce when they choose to enforce it. Does HG's failing to do certain things in the past have a bearing on what they can do currently? Sure. But, what that is we can only determine by what we see happening now, not in the past. I don't see this, internet business/retailers continuing to ignoring HG as that big a deal, the fact that BW can't get Macross merchandise in through anything other than the Grey Market is more telling.

Did HG ignore Macross and RT for a long time? Yes. Does that mean that they give up their rights to it? No. At least not according to current evidence already mentioned. And, BW has never accused HG of mishandling the license.

Edited by wrylac

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We've yet to see where this whole HG/BW battle is going. Big West seems to be taking their time, making sure they stand on firm legal ground, at least that's the impression I get from all of the information available.

I for one don't question that HG owns the rights to the SDF Macross tv series, and the merchandising thereof, but I've yet to see any evidence that they own anything more than that. Companies make groundless lawsuits all the time to prevent competition, it's a terrible loop hole in the American legal system that has become a common business practice. It takes a lot of money and a lot of time to get around even those kinds of lawsuits and legal threats.

I'm not saying HG's legal threats are baseless, perhaps their claims do have solid legal ground. All I'm saying is, they refuse to prove that they own what they say, which leaves things open for speculation. Unfortunately, us fans on either side of the fence won't be able to honestly claim we know what's what until Big West does try to take HG on in 'HG Territory'.

If it's going to happen at all, I'd be incredibly suprised if it wasn't this coming year. The legal battle in Japan seems to be over and done with, and Big West has made several Macross derivative copyrights in the United States. Macross Zero will soon be ripe for licensing, new Macross videogame from Sega, Tokyopop's Macross 7 Trash release, and of course Yamato's continued optimistic hints.

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By 'this year' I meant this coming year, 2004.

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... I for one don't question that HG owns the rights to the SDF Macross tv series....

well, dont forget that BW has found out they own the lineart to SDF Macross TV, so perhaps they can use that as a legal statement to say that HG and Toynami dont own the rights to it at all because without lineart, you cant have animation. Also, i was noticing that they try to copyright the UN Spacy logo when it's in the lineart and so kinda technically, therefore, they cant copyright it. (did i screw up on any of this at all?)

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... I for one don't question that HG owns the rights to the SDF Macross tv series....

well, dont forget that BW has found out they own the lineart to SDF Macross TV, so perhaps they can use that as a legal statement to say that HG and Toynami dont own the rights to it at all because without lineart, you cant have animation. Also, i was noticing that they try to copyright the UN Spacy logo when it's in the lineart and so kinda technically, therefore, they cant copyright it. (did i screw up on any of this at all?)

Nope. The ownership of the animetion and the ownership of the line art are 2 separate things, and if taken to court, a claim such as that wouldn't hold its own, otherwise owning the animation could also be considered owning the story and the line art. :)

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i sit corrected then.

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I for one don't question that HG owns the rights to the SDF Macross tv series, and the merchandising thereof, but I've yet to see any evidence that they own anything more than that. Companies make groundless lawsuits all the time to prevent competition, it's a terrible loop hole in the American legal system that has become a common business practice. It takes a lot of money and a lot of time to get around even those kinds of lawsuits and legal threats.

I know it's a little off on a tangent here, but that's EXACTLY what many brand-name drug companies do to prevent cheaper Generic equivalent drugs from hitting the market.

If you want to know more details, PM me, and I'll give you a crash course.

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Did HG ignore Macross and RT for a long time? Yes. Does that mean that they give up their rights to it? No. At least not according to current evidence already mentioned. And, BW has never accused HG of mishandling the license.

You misconstrue what I'm saying.

My point is that HG didn't ignore Macross because they didn't have any rights to it.

Their sudden "ownership" was simply an attempt to dissuade competition. Just as their "C&D letters" to the e-tailers was an attempt to clear the market for their upcoming MPC toy. Mind you, an attempt which failed due to HG's refusal to back up their claims with anything resembling tangible proof.

j_wong00- Excellent example. I used to do pharmacy purchasing for the University of Wisconsin Hospitals & Clinics and we kept a keen eye on lawsuits such as that in hopes that the generics would win, so we could save money.

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You misconstrue what I'm saying.

My point is that HG didn't ignore Macross because they didn't have any rights to it.

Sorry, I'm not trying to misconstrue, I don't really understand what it is you're trying to say, especially here.

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Jemstone, are you and mswump twins separated at birth? :p

Yeah, what's up with that extremely unflattering avatar? It's much too hairy to fit my mental picture of Jemstone. Bring back the "Meltran squishes the dismembered Zentran head" avatar!

Yeah, that creepy guy avatar is, well kinda creepy.

Hey, I happen to like that avatar. :D If Jemstone wants to use it, feel free.

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Jemstone, are you and mswump twins separated at birth? :p

Yeah, what's up with that extremely unflattering avatar? It's much too hairy to fit my mental picture of Jemstone. Bring back the "Meltran squishes the dismembered Zentran head" avatar!

Yeah, that creepy guy avatar is, well kinda creepy.

Hey, I happen to like that avatar. :D If Jemstone wants to use it, feel free.

Whats it from? you ought to find a cleaner one. It looks broken up.

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Keep it HG, BW,(....etc) related people. We've got PM for everything else(ie. where's your Av from?)

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You misconstrue what I'm saying.

My point is that HG didn't ignore Macross because they didn't have any rights to it.

Sorry, I'm not trying to misconstrue, I don't really understand what it is you're trying to say, especially here.

That's because I'm long-winded. It takes me ten minutes to say "Yes."

:p

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You misconstrue what I'm saying.

My point is that HG didn't ignore Macross because they didn't have any rights to it.

Sorry, I'm not trying to misconstrue, I don't really understand what it is you're trying to say, especially here.

That's because I'm long-winded. It takes me ten minutes to say "Yes."

:p

:huh::blink:

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You misconstrue what I'm saying.

My point is that HG didn't ignore Macross because they didn't have any rights to it.

Sorry, I'm not trying to misconstrue, I don't really understand what it is you're trying to say, especially here.

That's because I'm long-winded. It takes me ten minutes to say "Yes."

:p

:huh::blink:

He means you have to be really really drunk to understand that his entire post could have been replaced witha simple "Yes". :lol:

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