BEAST

I know! I even said so myself. I asked for help fixing the tags. I copied and pasted, then typed my remarks, in my phone. Very few options for tags or formatting there. Posted it. Then came here on my laptop to try to clean it up. But I didn't get very far with that until I ran right into a dead end. I cannot see what my mistake is. I think I found where it happened, but not what I did. And until the code error at that part gets fixed, I cannot go any further with clarifying the formatting later in the post.

WARNING: Super long message incoming!!! When I Googled "Macross canon", it was eye-opening, because of how much material exists showing us how little SK actually cares for canon or continuity. I found this 2013 blog post, citing transcribed interviews with SK <link>, and clicked through to check out its original sources. What follows are key words from SK himself, with some of my own commentary. SK implied that SDFM was a "story" "based on" in-universe historical facts, and a "story" told through a TV series--as opposed to the "historical facts" and the "real Macross", themselves. He drew a distinction between SDFM TV and Macross reality. SK says "all" of the Macross iterations have been "fictional" "stories", based upon an in-universe actual war. The TV series is "a story made about the [...] history" subsequent to the arrival of the ASS-1 and then televised. Now, the SDFM TV series was the first story, and the one most closely linked to the actual events, chronologically. But he still says that it is a "fiction after the fact", not "history", and that it is "different" from the "war that actually took place", in a different place from the "real truth", and a "limited" "adapted" "compromise" of "the facts". So once again, he drew a distinction. ----- Do you have sources for that? The sources that I can drum up all indicate that SK has embraced the non-canon viewpoint since at least 1998, purportedly back as far as 1995, and likely even before Macross began. 1998 was over 20 years ago. That was before Macross Zero. And 1995, 24 years ago, was right after Macross Plus/Macross 7. How is that "relatively recent"? The 1995 interview has some other relevant tidbits as to what Kawamori's central tenet has really been, all this time. Please forgive me for doing a hatchet job on the original transcript, but I'm going to re-sequence quotes from it in order to try to make the point more clear. "Actually, I got to know them [other famous animators] in high school and college through a science fiction convention called Kuri-Con. [...] The people around me were obsessed with science fiction, so I may have been turned off to some aspects of it. Maybe, in one part of my mind, I'd already made the decision not to become an otaku ("hardcore fan")." This sounds as if, as much as SK clearly loves the intricate technical details of mecha, he never wanted to be seen as a geek or nerd regarding sci-fi story lore. (Recall the 1986 Saturday Night Live skit with Captain Kirk: "Get a Life!") So does he similarly loathe the notion of being hidebound by sci-fi story canon? "I've always thought of TechnoPolice 21C as one of the trailblazers for original animation. It was supposed to be a theatrical release, but production problems wouldn't allow that. There were [...] other projects before Macross, and I was sort of involved with all three projects. And it just happened that the Macross idea was approved." SK was working on a bunch of different shows at the same time in 1981-82. (I have been able to track down mentions of Technopolice, Genocidas, Mobile Suit Gundam, and Ulysses-31, in addition to SDFM.) Macross just happened to be the one that got our attention, the most. We fans need to be careful that we don't assign greater personal significance of the franchise to SK than what he himself assigned to it. SDFM happened in 1982-83, and then he was ready to move on. Now, he was asked to stay on for the 1984 DYRL film, but notice how much it differs from the TV show. It is pretty clear that SK was not interested in rehashing the exact same story. He wanted to tell a new, different one. And he didn't really care that it contradicted the old one. 1987's Flashback 2012 both dramatized a previously mentioned but unseen event, Minmay's departure for S. Ataria Island; and continued where DYRL left off, with the departure of the Megaroad-1 from Earth. But this entire installment was only a half-hour long, and features maybe 10 minutes of new material, at that. 6 years after his first Macross design work, SK was on the way out. Macross was in his rear view mirror. Or so he hoped... "The Macross compilation video Flashback 2021 gives hints about Minmei and Misa's future. Is there any chance you'll animate a continuation of that story? I don't really want to. I've already used Minmei, Misa, and Hikaru in the TV series, and they show up again in the feature version, as well. If they show up for the third time in another movie, you'll be sick of them, too. It won't be a fresh story." He didn't really want to continue the same story. STAMP. He even goes so far as to actually project onto fans his feeling of being "sick" of revisiting character storylines from the past. That is not the mindset of someone who cherishes continuity and canon. No, rather, SK was embracing new, fresh stories. He wanted to move forward, without being held back by the past. "In Macross II, the mothership gets destroyed. What happens after that? I haven't watched Macross II. [Laughs] So, when it comes to Macross II, "No comment." If I watch it, I know I'll want to comment on it, y'know...? "Why weren't you involved in Macross II...? Back then, I had sworn off making sequels. I had my reasons at the time. [Laughs]" So SK did not like the idea of continuing SDFM any further. He didn't like sequels. DYRL and FB2012 were done and long gone. Fast forward to 1992, and Macross was "so last decade" (1982). "Previously, you've said that you won't make any sequels. So why are you coming back to Macross now? In the current animation market, it's getting harder and harder for an original project to be approved. A project has to be based on an already-popular story to stand a chance. Of course, if something's got the name Macross attached to it, it stands to reason that the chances of approval are very high. Even better, the project can be done the way I want it to be done. In the case of Macross Plus, I decided to go with the Macross name and make the series I wanted to make." This almost sounds like a confession of a cynical attitude towards television and Anime. Even as he said that he wanted to tell a fresh new story, SK said he effectively couldn't. The market and TPTB wouldn't let him. He couldn't do what he really wanted to do. So he made a Macross show instead. Well, he ostensibly slapped the Macross skin on it, but then, despite that, he went and made the show that he really wanted to make. That it had the UN Spacy kite on its wings was mere coincidence, or circumstance. "I may not do a sequel about the main characters, but a supporting character might get featured, or a side-story-kind-of-sequel might be a possibility. [...] "In Macross 7, Max and Miria show up. Why? I didn't want to use Minmei and Misa and Hikaru, as I mentioned before, but I did want to portray the supporting characters more." He said that, but notice: he both designed for and directed Macross Plus, while he only designed for Macross 7. If he was so keen on the idea of continuing the story with the familiar characters, like he says, then why didn't he direct that show? Apparently he picked the former, because as he said, he preferred to work on the fresh new story, with all new characters and plot. "Also, when I went to the United States, I talked to many people and they all liked Max. Perhaps Americans like "genius pilots" better than Japanese do...? I thought that kind of popularity might prove valuable later down the line, and in a certain sense, it has. You could say the idea to bring Max and Miria back (in Macross 7) was an idea that was born during a visit to the US." The inclusion of those older characters was apparently in some small way SK's attempt to make Macross 7 appealing to a US audience. Oh, the irony! At any rate, it appears to show that Max & Miria were more likely tokens featured for others' amusement, rather than his own. Canonicity and continuity are not near and dear to SK's heart. "Is there anything you'd like to remake if you had the opportunity? That would be everything. [Laughs] But I think about the future, for example, with Macross, on which I've worked for so long. In that sense, I'm glad I've been able to work on a variety of things, and what's coming may be more interesting than what's transpired." Here, while SK does acknowledge that he was happy with his past Macross work, he also--jokingly--says that he would like to remake it. This might at first seem to be inconsistent with and contradictory to what he has said previously (namely, that he wanted to move on to new things). But notice: even if he revisits old aspects of Macross, he says that what he envisions might be "more interesting than what's transpired." More interesting than the past, how? How would he change a retro-Macross for the better? Regardless, the most relevant thing to notice is that SK openly declares that he would make changes if he were to ever redo past elements of Macross. He doesn't promise to employ a slavish, painstaking effort to be faithful to the source material. His primary interest is in doing something "more interesting" than that. "Whatever I want to do, the cost of labor is rising, and it's becoming more difficult to make an original story. [...] There are aspiring animators and mecha designers abroad---do you have any advice for these people? If I have any advice, it's that I think originality is becoming rare worldwide, so you should aspire to be original." There he goes again, chanting a familiar mantra. I imagine if Kawamori were ever a male cheerleader, he might say, "Be...inventive, Be, Be...inventive!" ----- And then there is this 2015 <Forbes article>. Again, please forgive me for slicing up the original text and rearranging the pieces, but it is done for the purpose of hammering home the point that SK has always been this way. Early on, he says that his artwork began with designs inspired by the Space Battleship Yamato TV show, and then in college, with designs of automobiles and real world spacecraft. I imagine that this sort of derivative work was heavily restricted to the rules, precedents, and norms manifest in what came before. And that is very confining and unpleasant to a creative, artistic type of person. At any rate, SK's period of confinement was not destined to continue for long. He began working for Studio Nue in his freshman year, and his design work there opened his eyes to new, personally more interesting possibilities: "I also came to realise that in animation I could still design those kinds of spaceships, as well as anything else I thought was interesting. That in itself was a pivotal moment for me I think.” Key words there: "anything else I thought was interesting." Since that time, SK has often said that a major reason for his leaving real world spacecraft design behind was the lack of a meaningful Japanese space program at the time. I do not mean to question SK's integrity by challenging that notion. But I cannot help but hypothesize that he must not have only been dissuaded away from realistic space designs, but also toward more fanciful ones. This was not only a more practical and lucrative avenue for him as a young man, but also a more attractive avenue for him as the creative type. “The aspect of transformation, for me anyway, has always been about trying to pursue a sense of originality. There are many things in the world that look good or are already stylish, but once the mecha transforms, the functions of the engines and seats for instance would be lost. In addition, external parts often have to be added to make the mecha transform. When I designed VF-1 Valkyrie 35 years ago, mecha rarely did it all in one self-contained process.” “Since it didn’t really exist like that back in the day, once it could be achieved then that’s something that I thought would be original. [...] “So that’s a big drive for me and my work.” SK valued perfect transformation not just in a toy, but in his Anime mecha designs as well. And he says that this value dovetails with his desire to be different from others who have come before, and to have original elements that set his designs apart from those of others. But SK was not about to make something fanciful and bizarre, simply in the name of looking fanciful and bizarre. He had been an aspiring real world engineering major at one point, after all. He perceived a need for realistic elements in mecha design, and he was just the person to fulfill that need: “In the world of animation, there are often instances where there are vehicles that are impossible to take flight but are somehow still able to go airborne. However, as I was once someone who wanted to become a mechanical engineer, I always want to approach these things with a greater degree of realism. [...] “Though back then it was still very new and robots didn’t have much realism behind them, which made them not very believable. In the case of Macross though, we had airplanes that transformed specifically to fight giants. In that sense we had an internal logic that likely made sense to people. I believe it was this that made the mecha acceptable to Westerners who think logically.” Notice the reasons he gives for why he loved the designs of the following aerospace vehicles, from both history and sci-fi television. He does not pick the 10th or 20th variant of some long running line of aircraft, but rather, radical designs that departed far from those of their contemporaries: “In terms of other designs I like, the XB-70 Valkyrie is genius. As it is very innovative and has a very clear practical use but at the same time looks unique. I also really like the Thunderbird 2, both the character of its body and the creativity used to make it. It really is fantastic.” SK uses terms like "genius", "very innovative", "unique", "creativity", and "fantastic". These are his guiding principles. These are his goal statements. These make up his rubric for whatever projects he works on: “In terms of the writing process, I approach it as whether I could make something original. Something that hasn’t been seen in a prior animated work, film or novel. In short, a work that hasn’t really been done before. So when I approach the story, the process may not be all that different from writing, directing and designing mecha; as each part is often connected with the other. [...] “Generally, I like to try and find a new way of telling a story. A new angle.” Concepts such as "canon", "continuity", or the like don't show up anywhere in there. “Regarding my process as a director [specifically of 1984's DYRL], no-one really taught me how I should do it so I’ve approached it from the point of view of a designer. [...] Therefore, I decided to also apply my design method to my direction work. [...] Again, using the method of doing something that hasn’t really been done before as well as always seeking for originality are very important.” Creative, innovative, unique, original. Always. But never canon, continuity, consistency. So, not surprisingly, the movie flew right off the rails away from the TV show in terms of many of the details. Because that's how SK rolls. That's how he has always rolled, almost since the beginning. "In the early design stages for the transformable mecha, the aircraft was looking a bit too toy like. [... T]he toy company at that time thought that [this design wouldn't] really sell and that was yet another barrier to overcome." "[... S]o I really felt I had to focus on this seriously. [...] That meant we had an all-new design with three modes. “When the toy company saw the prototype they agreed to the design and series plan on the spot.” SK focused on an "all-new" design for the Valkyrie, and he credited that for being approved by the tie-in toy company at the time. "Normally, in battle orientated stories the strength of the respective forces and weapons resolves in a final conflict. That’s pretty standard really, so [instead of that] I thought that I could use the setting of the Zentradi having no culture of their own. Whereas Minmay’s role was a singer and that could act as a form of culture shock to a cultureless enemy. “Therefore, I eventually had the idea to end the great space war by the power of the song and its resultant culture shock. This solution was original I thought, maybe even a world first. Never seen before in animation, movies or even novels.” Rather than doing what was "normal" or "pretty standard really", SK wanted to end the great war of SDFM in an "original", "world first", "never seen before" manner: "Yak deculture!" But alas, that's not what actually happened, in either the show or the film. In both formats, Minmay's song helped to unite the forces of Earth and some of the Zentraedi, but Bodolzaa was killed to end the war. (Network or producer interference? Either way, SK's intent fits the pattern.) However, having just killed Bodolzaa off with the Macross mothership in the 1983 TV finale, in the name of still doing things somehow differently, in the name of being more interesting than what just came right before, SK changed the ending up in the 1984 movie by having the big bad killed by Hikaru in his VF-1S Super Valkyrie. And he makes sure to tell us of the many other Anime and video game projects that he has worked on besides the official Macross programs, as well as whatever innovations he was responsible for introducing within them. The interview goes on to mention other productions that SK feels copied Macross elements, and points out that he has not always received due credit for them. He wants credit as the originator and creator. He is entitled to it. The issue of who exactly gets to modify the Macross saga itself is another recurring one. SK did not like it when Harmony Gold made changes to the story in its Robotech TV retelling of the Macross space war: “When it comes to Robotech, it’s difficult to comment. [... T]his was an opportunity for our work to be shown to the world and for that I am thankful. However, because the partial change in the story was made without approval from us, the original authors, it still produces an uncomfortable feeling after all these years.” Change to the story alone, it would seem, is not good in itself. SK appears to feel that he needs to be the one to author or at least co-sign it. He also laments that his involvement was never requested for any of the stillborn Macross live-action adaptation projects that have come before. “This [2015 Warner Bros. project] isn’t the first time a live action movie like this has been conceived either and over the years I’ve heard of multiple attempts, though during this time they’ve never contacted me for any of them. “As the original creator of Macross I do find that quite disappointing. I should be at least contacted really." By now it should be clear that SK cries not for changes to the original Macross storyline. He has made a lot of them, himself. Likely what he is really most sensitive to here is whatever changes that might be made without his approval. He wants to be the privileged creative re-inventor. He wants the artistic prerogative to make changes to the material. The bottom line for SK appears not to be faithfulness to any existing standard. It appears to simply be his ego as an artist, both in terms of maintaining creative control and in receiving credit. I apologize if any of this has come across as overly harsh. This was not meant as a hit piece against Kawamori. It is simply a report on what appears to be prevailing pattern regarding these matters, as revealed by pertinent interviews with the man himself, based on his own words. If I have made any gross errors, I welcome constructive criticism about such, and I will endeavor to correct this essay accordingly.

Well it is frustrating to keep reading an implied "based on true events" tag line to these programs, but never be able to get at the true events, themselves. It can sometimes convey the sense that something is fishy or fake, but that much is being swept under the rug by an effective carnival barker. Besides, some of us like documentaries even more than artistically-licensed, indulgent dramatizations. I choose to stick with the first version of events, unless a retelling contradicts it and provides both a satisfying, coherent explanation why it is contradictory and also why the first version got it so wrong. Someone (?) found the DYRL music notes, and Minmei/crew made up words and a full instrumental arrangement based upon them. And that was enough to speak to some faded, buried emotions within the hearts of the Zentraedi during the war.

I opened it in Chrome and told it to translate for me. That helps some. But it appears that for every option that you want to vote for, they then ask you multiple additional questions about why, who you are, where you are, etc. Ain't nobody got time for that!

Well at least they're not Robotech or Clash of the Bionoids!

Not sure which versions. They are YT versions from different up loaders. Not sure which is official. I think one of the versions is very colloquial, loose, and trendy in its translated sub. In the scene where Messer critiques all of his pilots and then leaves, Chuck says that "Grim Reaper be reapin'!" That struck me as an extremely American slang way of translating. But I had no way of knowing if it was faithful to the way Chuck speaks Japanese or if it demonstrated some sort of artifact being interpolated into the story by the translator. Either way, Ep. 19 clearly shows both AWN and DYRL being sung in Berger's speech. In the second, last, time he mentions the war, he says that they used DYRL to win, as Minmay sings the song in the background.

Still watching the MD series for the first time. Not sure if I read the subtitles right. I did a search for this here but I did not see any specific mention of it. In Ep. 19, the arms dealer guy appears to say that UN Spacy used the "DYRL" theme song to help win Space War I, like in the movie. But earlier in the same ep., there is a clip of Minmay during the big battle singing "Ai Wa Nagareru", like in the series. In Macross canon up to this point, DYRL was not around during the war, right? It was made up for the in-universe movie years after the fact, right? Minmay actually sang AWN during the climax of the battle, per the series, correct? I have long dreamed about a live action SDFM movie, but I would prefer to have the DYRL song somehow preserved for the big battle. It's just that good. MD now makes it sound like the song is somehow being retconned back into the actual war, and not just a part of the movie's song track. So does the DYRL song still have ancient Protoculture origins now? Or is it supposed to be a merely human melody that was made up for the big battle? Or is it possible that the melody still has some sort of ancient connection to PC? Might Exedol have, perhaps, found the tune and shared it with Minmay just before the big battle? (This would bypass the need for the additional canonization of the scene from the movie in which Hikaru and Misa rummaged through the Zentraedi city ruins.) Or is the old arms dealer guy just mixing up history? Should prior canon still stand? Sorry if this has already been discussed.

I was gonna say that it sounded a lot like a mechanical equivalent to the sort of specialized biological evolution that we see in isolated regions, such as the Galapagos Islands. Each Fleet begins to take on a sort of "isolated island" feel the further out from Earth that it moves. Macrapagos Islands? Macragos Islands? Galapacross Islands?

I dig this! This leaves the door wide open to reinterpretation, and practically invites it. Now, this, not so much. Yes, it's a very realistic possibility. New music sometimes gets attached to movies of old events. Faith Hill's power ballad love song "There You'll Be" and the movie Pearl Harbor come to mind, with Hill doing the video dressed in period costumes and in period set pieces. Hill wasn't even in the movie, and she certainly wasn't in the real WWII. But I just hate to consider gutting Macross of a real Minmay, and relegating Iijima's performances to revisionist music for propaganda. The whole idea (well, at least one very major idea) of Macross is that music can and should be more than that.

You jest. But I found this at <the MC>: I don't remember these alleged discrepancies between the in-world film and the RW film. Can anybody else confirm?

Aha. Very cool. I'll have to revisit M7 and the history of the PC again, to see if I can feel comfortable with that idea. --- I also got to thinking, what if "DYRL?" was originally a song that Minmay prepared--say, acapella-style--for Max's and Milia's wedding? Such a momentous occasion would've probably warranted a special new song, and this one is a doozie of a love song. Then, she might've amped it up into a full piece with instrumental accompaniment for the big battle. This would allow the song to be in the ears and minds of Macrossians ever since 2010, building popularity, achieving classic status. Because it's one of those songs that seem like it has always been with you, deep down inside (and indeed, had been around since 2010), the 2031 movie-makers could've then retroactively instilled it with the PC mystical mumbo-jumbo background story, and movie-goers would eat it up. That would make for a very extended evolution of a song! --- Exedol could've consulted with Minmay in the preparation for the song. Perhaps he provided the melody, from Zentraedi records. In that way, then it would be very possible that the movie's explanation of it being an old PC tune might turn out to be correct. It would come full circle, and merge the TV series and the movie more tightly.

Meh. I hate vague, noncommital, wishy-washy non-answers like that. Kawamori-sen should've been a politician! Gawd, that sucks! I didn't want to read this, but I was expecting exactly this sort of bad news. Dang! Communications with Megaroad-01 cease in 2016, and the film is released in 2031. Maybe someday TPTB will tell us that communications were restored at some point during the 15 year time gap and the movie was transmitted from the Megaroad-01 to the rest of the fleet at this time? Retcon alert! Maybe that was the last meaningful transmission: a sort of gift? A definite possibility. At least this theory preserves Minmay as the performer, which is crucial. There is something magical about both Iijima's voice and Minmay's persona, and methinks whatever theory we go with, we should honor those points. I get this idea. RW Moviemakers do this sort of thing all the time. They insert music into scenes that they think is inspiring, funny, or otherwise appropriate that might actually be situationally inaccurate, or even anachronistic. But I think the song should be seen as actually being a part of the Space War. I don't like the idea of it just being some song that Minmay came up with for an album between 2012 and 2016, and which was retroactively reinserted into the Space War pseudo-history of the film. Instead, I'd rather retroactively reinsert it into the Space War canonical history! I don't like the idea of some other actress pulling off this song. Obviously, it was really performed by the same RW singer-actress, so it seems silly to attribute it to a different in-world singer-actress. And it will forever be linked to both Minmay and Iijima-sen, so I think we should choose a theory that respects that. I could maybe go with a CGI movie Minmay lipsynching to an authentic Minmay audio recording, though.

The real-life song was first really sung for the movie. And the movie has been reinterpreted as an in-world movie. But what song(s) did Minmay actually sing during the great battle against Bodolza? Did she only sing her familiar TV series songs, as in Ep.27? Or did she, perhaps, sing "DYRL?"? I don't like the idea that such a classic song only originated years, or even decades, after the Space War, during the filming of the in-world movie, with Minmay & Co. detached somewhere way out there in deep space. I like to think of it as actually being deeply connected with the important events of the series. But I can understand if a serious review of the facts points in a different direction.

(With a choice to either start a new thread or conduct a search and raising from the dead, I went the necromancy route. Six one way--half a dozen the other . . .) I finished watching M7 and all its peripherals programs recently, and now I am trying to determine the chronological/sequential placement of those peripherals in relation to the episodes. I don't think the following is quite correct: Here's my take. RECOMMENDED VIEWING SEQUENCE: Macross 7, Eps.1-20 "Encore: On Stage" 21-40 "Encore: Which One Do You Love?" 41-42 "Macross 7 Movie: The Galaxy Is Calling Me!" "Fleet Of The Strongest Women" 43-49 Macross Dynamite 7, Eps.1-4 RATIONALE (spoilers): I will use the nomenclature of "x" to refer to the placement of a given peripheral program, and then relate it to relevant episode numbers. "ENCORE: On Stage" ("OS") This video could theoretically be placed in any of three different places, which I will call "Early", "Intermediate", and "Late". EARLY: - The beginning of the TV talk show "Coffee Break" tells us that Akiko is Fire Bomber's (FB) promoter. She agreed to promote the single "Planet Dance" in Ep.8. Ray was looking for a manager in Ep.14, but the band still could not afford one at that time. At the beginning of Ep.20, Akiko tells us that the concert there is "the first day", which apparently means the first concert she has managed for the band. So Ep.20<x. - The male talk show host tells us that FB has risen to the top of the charts. In Ep.14, "Planet Dance" was still only 8th on the pop charts. In Ep.20, Michael tells Milia that the song has finally reached #1. 20<x - Ep.21 begins with a public announcement that FB will be recording an album, and then we see the band recording in Akiko's studio. There is no mention of this album on the TV show. The two songs that we hear being played in the Encore are "Love Heart" and "Planet Dance", rather than any of the band's later music. x<21 - Because of after-effects from being possessed by Sivil, Akiko is sent to the hospital at the end of Ep.22, where she stays until the beginning of Ep.25. x<22 - There is no mention of Sound Force, or Mylene's or Ray's Valks. These became publically known in Ep.25. Instead, the talk show only shows Basara's VF-19 as the mecha face of the band. x<25 These things would seem to point to an early chronological placement of "OS": 20<x<21. INTERMEDIATE: However, there are a some other elements in the show which are problematic, pointing to a possibly later chrono placement: - The Macross 7 (M7) fleet is shown in the opening narrative of the encore as being completely intact, with all ships traveling together through deep space, rather than on the surface of or in orbit around the planet Lux. City 7 (C7) is separated from Battle 7 (B7) in Ep.12. C7 does not rejoin the fleet until the end of Ep.22. Because of the encore's opening narrative, it is possible that End22<x. (This is assuming that the opening narrative is intended to be taken as specifically relevant to the encore's timing, rather than only serving general background information purposes. We don't really know if the fleet is indeed still intact or scattered during the time of the talk show.) - Because of after-effects from being possessed by Sivil, Akiko is sent to the hospital at the end of Ep.22, where she stays until the beginning of Ep.25. Her first musical project at that point is the failed duet with Basara and Alice Holiday. Now, since she is out of both the hospital and the music studio for the talk show appearance, then 25<x. - We see The M7 fleet fold into orbit around the planet Lux at the end of Ep.25. The fleet lands on Lux in Ep.26, and does not fold away from the planet's surface back out into space until the end of Ep.38. End38<x - Ep.39 is clip show in which Akiko compiles stock video footage from UN Forces for a publicity video on Basara and Sound Force. It might make sense that Akiko would have made the TV talk show appearance around this time, too. But none of this footage was made available for the talk show, though. x<39 A possible intermediate placement for "OS" could be between Episodes 38 and 39. 38<x<39 LATE: Lastly, there is a remote possibility of a very late chronological placement of the encore: - In the encore's opening concert before the talk show, Flower Girl holds a Basara VF-19 stuffed toy. We see her actually winning such a stuffed toy from the arcade where Mylene's birthday party was held in Ep.43. 43<x (Though it's entirely possible that Flower Girl would have bought lots of Basara memoribilia, including multiple stuffed toys. Can one have too many Yammies, for example? On the other hand, would there have been enough time for toys of Basara's Val to be made early on in the band's history? Or might Flower Girl have actually hand-sewn the particular stuffed toy she was holding in the encore? The exact significance of that stuffed Valk in the encore remains unclear.) - Fire Bomber/Sound Force are preoccupied with Operation Stargazer from Episode 43 through 46. 46<x - There is a vague period between the Gabil-Gamlin incident (46) and the concert at the beginning of 47, just before the last two Protodeviln attack. It's possible Akiko could've chosen todo the talk show appearance during this time. x<47 This leads to a possible late chrono placement for "OS" of 46<x<47. But neither an intermediate nor a late placement makes sense given the scarcity of info provided about Fire Bomber's past in the talk show, and the lack of mention of any of the band's later songs, and the lack of discussion of Sound Force and the other Valks. This talk show comes off as occurring earlier in FB's history, when the band was new and mysterious, rather than later. We probably should not place too much stock in the fact that the opening narrative uses stock footage of the fleet while intact, nor be swayed by that toy. So I tentatively believe that the Encore "On Stage" should be considered as taking place between Episodes 20 and 21. 20<"OS"<21 "ENCORE: WHICH ONE DO YOU LOVE?" ("WODYL?") - Ray and Mylene's Valks both have Sound Boosters here. Dr. Chiba invented these and first put them into service in Ep.28. 28<x - The M7 fleet is shown here in both stock and new footage as intact and in open space, rather than near Lux. End38<x - Gamlin is wearing his full service dress uniform during his date with Miho, and he is repeatedly referred to as "Lieutenant Gamlin" here. Now, he quit the military in Ep.34, and he did not re-join until Ep.40. 40<x - As the five Valks and their pilots sing to the stars, we are shown footage of a little boy on a farm, who is holding a stuffed toy of Guvava bearing a wide-open mouth. This is the boy Billy, who we meet in Ep.41. His toy Guvava has that open mouth in the beginning of the ep, but Billy sews the mouth shut at the end. x<41 40<"WODYL?"<41. The encore "Which One Do You Love?" would seem to take place between Episodes 40 and 41. (Interestingly enough, since Milia flies in her red VF-22S here, we now also know that she must've gotten that Valk before Ep.41, too. So one must wonder: what happened to the red VF-17, since Ep.21? Was it the same Valk that Milia let Gamlin keep for himself when he quit the military, re-painted black? That might open the window of opportunity for her to go looking for a VF-22.) "MACROSS 7 MOVIE: THE GALAXY IS CALLING ME!" ("TGICM!") - Ray and Mylene's Valks both have Sound Boosters here. Dr. Chiba invented these and first put them into service in Ep.28. 28<x - The M7 fleet is shown here in new footage as intact and in an unfamiliar region of open space, rather than near Lux. End38<x - Gamlin is wearing his full service dress uniform during his date with Miho, and he is repeatedly referred to as "Lieutenant Gamlin" here. Now, he quit the military in Ep.34, and did not re-join until Ep.40. 40<x - This program begins with Dr. Chiba working on an experiment with music and plants. That idea very well could've been derived from wisdom shared by the Sunny Flower farmer in Ep.41, who said that plants like good music. 41<x - Gabil and Grabil ("Gab & Grab"™) unite with Natter-Balgo to form the super robeast "fatal combo". And the four heroic mecha all surround this creature ring-around-the-rosey-style to wail on it with Sound Energy, creating a sort of incomplete Sound Barrier effect. Both of these concepts were introduced in Ep.42. 42<x - But there is no mention here of Operation Stargazer, which was introduced in Ep.43 and runs through Ep.46. x<43 42<"TGICM!"<43. This leads me to agree with the above opinion that "The Galaxy Is Calling Me!" must've taken place between Episodes 42 and 43. "FLEET OF THE STRONGEST WOMEN" ("FOTSW") Since this video has no definite time clues, its placement is highly arbitrary. It could be viewed at any point during a string of rather random stories between Episodes 40 and 43. - It could be right after Ep.40, and before "WODYL?". Ep.40 dealt with Gabil's random remote-control mecha scheme, and also showed Gamlin's return to the military. (However, as explained above, I believe that Ep.40 and "WODYL?" should be viewed together as leading up to Ep.41.) - It could take place right after Ep.41, when we are taken on the random detour to the Sunny Flower agriculture ship, and before Ep.42. (However, as explained above, I believe that Eps.41 and 42 should be viewed together as leading up to "TGICM!".) - It probably takes place following "TGICM!", after yet another random detour--this time to a snowy planet--but before the Operation Stargazer campaign begins in Ep.43, running through Ep.46. A random adventure with a Meltrandi fleet would actually kinda fit right nicely here, without interfering with the quasi-order amidst all the other random episodes between 40 and 43. "TGICM!"<x<43 - I highly doubt the above opinion that this video occurred between Ep.46 (the end of Operation Stargazer) and Ep.47, because Gabil-Gamlin vamped out on Milia in Ep.46, sending her to the hospital, and she's still in her bed at home in Ep.47. Milia didn't get out of bed until Ep.49. She couldn't have been up and about to go chat with Chlore in "FOTSW", then, in between these two episodes. x<46 - Because of the drama of the events in Ep.49 (the crashing of B7, the abandoning of ship, Mylene's cooperation with the Jamming Birds, Basara's arising from the coma, Flower Girl's successful delivery of the flowers, Gepelnitch's destruction of Basara's VF-19, Gepelnitch's realization of the power of Spiritia Creation, and the departure of the Protodeviln), I would tend to think that the last numbered ep should be considered the true final conclusion to the series. All of the peripherals ought to fall in at some point before Ep.49, I feel. x<49 My best guess is that "Fleet of the Strongest Women" works best when viewed between "The Galaxy Is Calling Me!" and Episode 43. "TGICM!"<"FOTSW"<43 MACROSS DYNAMITE 7 (MD7) While the events of <M7> are officially said to take place in the years 2045 and 2046, <MD7> is dated in the year 2047.

Abaddôn (Heb. 'AbadDÔWN): place of destruction, havoc, or ruin Apollyôn: the Destroyer or Angel of Destruction (more accurately ApolLUôn, or "the one who loosens-away") Badlander (as in "Frontier") Blitz or Blitzer (Ger.): lightning Boondocks or Boondocker (as in "Frontier") Borderliner (as in "Frontier" & M+) Brigand Bushwacker (as in "Frontier") Freebooter (Dutch vrijbuiter): pirate Frontiersman (as in "Frontier") Havoc Highwayman Hinterland or Hinterlander (as in "Frontier") Merc Outback or Outbacker (as in "Frontier") Pinnacle (as in "Frontier") Ravager Swashbuckler Threshold (as in "Frontier") Verger (i.e., "one who goes out on the verge", as in "Frontier") Zenith (i.e., "highest point")

That's similar to my preference too. A live-action-&-CGI film trilogy adaptation, with one "season" per film. Macross, The Movie 01 : SDFM, Eps. 01-14 Macross, The Movie 02 : SDFM, Eps. 15-27 Macross, The Movie 03 : SDFM, Eps. 28-36; + FB2012's concluding epilogue.

But all "magic" was, originally, was the collection of phenomena surrounding the magi, who were the priests of the ancient Persian religion of Zarethustranism. In that sense, "magic" is just tapping into and applying the energies and forces of the gods as they work within nature. (Coupled with a bunch of hype and propaganda...) That's basically all science and technology are. They are tapping into and applying the energies and forces of the creating-phenomena-of-nature as they work within nature. Even with all the cool sounding names, that's really all the pure sciences ("sciences") and applied sciences ("technologies") are. Science and supernaturalism each has its own distinctive methodology and lingo, but . . . yeah. And it would seem that both the Mayan and Protodeviln practices should be similarly categorized. That is to say, in the world of sci-fi/sci-fant. --- In the real world, I call "bullsh*t" just as fast as the next guy.

There are also these basic SK VF-1D pics from this very site's Art section: For some decent detail of the panel lines on the back of Milia's VF-1J in battroid mode, check out: Detailed VF-1A fighter side profile, courtesy of MacrossNexus: And for some great detail of the nose section of Roy's VF-1S in fighter mode, see this site which shall not be named.

Roger, roger. It sounds like the main problem with SN & Macross was too much sing-song, and not enough CYA. Thanks for the direct answers, guys. I'm done.

"Some" rights being signed over, I get. It's the "exclusive" part that seems to have caused all the problems. Why not let SN/BW license merchandise based on their copyrighted designs, apart from the show? How can HG block that? Since SN/BW holds authorial rights to the designs, then merchandise based on those should be free from HG interference. I've been reading the 60-some-odd-page locked thread here on that. I do appreciate that one of the cases upheld SN/BW's authorial rights regarding the basic Macross designs. But it sounds like a weird analysis of the contracts/licenses is in effect here. Everything seems to be interpreted in favor of the bigger companies, with the bigger money, instead of in the favor of the creators of the show. That defies the "reasonable person" standard I mentioned. I'll try to look into the laws, as you said, but I can't see how anyone would be justified in disregarding reason and fairness to the creators. How can a law side with companies that haven't shown written contracts/licenses to back up their claims, though? There doesn't appear to be any written documentation or reason on their side. They just have their claims--and their money and intimidating lawyers. Decent judges shouldn't go for that. Again, I'll try to find the laws. But it all smells fishy. It trips my reason/BS meter.

Thanks, guys. BW dove into a great big pool of grayness, and it seems like the others have taken advantage of it. Theoretically, a decent judge would use the "reasonable person" standard to decide such cases in gray areas like this. Would a reasonable person think that Studio New/BW would have signed over all of its distribution rights to another company like Tatsunoku? Probably not. Would a reasonable person think that SN/BW would have signed over all its rights to merchandising outside Nippon exclusively to another company like Harmony Gold? Probably not. That the courts would contemplate upholding such unreasonable claims smacks of corruption to me. It's like they're saying, "Never mind how unreasonable it sounds; SN/BW might have made just such a screwy deal anyway, so we should hear the other companies out." I blame the judges as much as HG.

Have any copies of the actual legal contracts regarding Macross/Robotech ever been made publicly available? Rather than being dragged into the whole long sordid history of the legal battles, could I have a simple answer to that question first? Thanks. We've all heard about the ongoing legal battles in vague terms, and that various companies lay claim to this or that, and even that there have been court rulings in the matter. But can actual original legal contracts be seen that back up these claims? It would seem to me that without a contract from Big West authorizing Tatsunoku to make outside deals, then there should be no grounds to Harmony Gold's claims to have acquired Macross rights--much less exclusive rights. And without a contract from Big West or Tatsunoku to HG clearly granting exclusive rights to all-things-Macross outside of Nippon, then HG should be summarily laughed at by any judge. So how could this legal battle have raged on, if copies of the contracts either are--or even if they are not--available? It should be simple. Contract = closed case. Yes? No contract = no grounds for subsidiary claims of exclusive rights. Right?

Nope. Hikaru was chasing after Milia (Ep.16 - 20:00-forward) before Misa ever got the order to launch the Daedalus Attack (20:30). Misa fires off the missiles (21:20), one of which hits Hikaru in the wing, and he screams in a close-up, "I'm hit!" (21:35). Then we're given a very brief scene (about 3 seconds total: 21:37-21:40) with a wide angle view of the bow of the Daedalus and the aerial battle going on outside, which shows Milia's Q-Rau zipping about. Hikaru's Valk flies into view, trailing smoke and losing altitude for sure, but still certainly moving forward in a stable manner (21:37). That's when Milia shoots him with her Q-Rau and his plane finally blows up (21:38). It is then that we see a parachute pop and begin to descend (21:39). Lastly, we see his chute and body floating in the water (23:07-23:19). So Misa shot him up. But Milia shot him down. Exactly. Apparently, Hikaru was actually able to give her a run for her money while in pursuit. The chase went on for more than a minute. It seems that Max wasn't the only one who could at least pose a bit of a challenge to her. So as soon as Hikaru was disabled by Misa's missiles, Milia lit into him and took his plane out. I think that that is a bit of a presumption on y'all's parts. We don't know that Hikaru was going to crash after the single missile strike. His plane is clearly shown still flying, or at least gliding, forward. That means that it still had positive aerodynamic lift and directional stability. It was losing altitude, but it was coming down in a controlled manner. It might have been able to hover in for a landing somewhere. There was no indication that Hikaru was planning to bail out. That makes me doubt that he was going to crash anyway. (Realistically, yeah, if you take a missile to a wing, your ass is grass. His wing should've gone completely bye-bye. There's no way he'd've been able to maintain stability like that with such a rapid loss of lift on one side of his plane. But Misa's missile only made a small puncture hole in his wing, rather than removing it. This conveniently set Hikaru up for Milia to take the shot, and the real blame. ) Milia did more than just insult Hikaru. She actually hit him in vital enough of an area to make his VF explode. That ended its flying stability--hell, it ended his entire freaking plane!--which is what actually finally shot him down and made him eject. At least, that's my take.

Except Milia shot him down, and she did own him. Misa shot his wing with a missile, but she couldn't take a bruthah down. It took a Zent chick to do that. The closing credits preview narrator tells me so.

Why build a civilian city around it, though? You can build runways that are thousands of feet long and just put military bases around them, or construct new naval ships and keep the civilians a long, long way off. Why the need to put civilians so close? Especially annoying teenage girl wanna-be pop stars? Watch Ep.1 again. No, they weren't. It was an airshow, with a spaceship as the main attraction. Could civilians have actually climbed aboard? Not likely. You're right that they were kept a physical, walking distance away. But they were still close enough to take lots of pictures, and maybe even shoot it if they had terroristic tendencies. This wasn't so long after the Unification Wars, you should recall. And with all of those still-untested systems, it was negligent of them to have that many civilians around. Just consider how many got blown away when the main gun took out that forward chunk of the island. They don't build cities right next door to nuclear plants, do they? At least not in <Texas>, they don't. And this thing would have the most powerful energy sources ever built by and/or operated by man, with many still unknown operating characteristics. It would've been like the second machine in the movie Contact, IMO. Unless if you figure in political pressure to make a big flashy publicity stunt. Which would explain why they were rushing the thing into space with a full crew when they still hadn't tested all of its systems yet, either. Like the first Contact machine. Why, though? Why would they have all those civilians living there? It doesn't make sense. The animation also shows people's Valk's changing colors back and forth and gun pods alternating from shoulder to shoulder to being nonexistent to being existent again, too. I'm asking why do it that way, since it doesn't make sense. Simply saying that it happened in the original show that way kinda defies the whole purpose of this thread, which is to explain what we would do differently. And I would at least try to give a more feasible explanation for what all those civilians were doing there so close to the most powerful, untested machine ever made/operated by man. Stupid political showmanship. Yep, makes sense to me. So with that much unknown, why have all those civilians around, and all that presumably live media coverage? If you don't know whether your super-duper mega-nuclear reactor switch thingy is going to work well or blow up an entire research facility, do you put a bunch of civlians right next door and bring in live TV crews? Or do you do it all secretive like, as in Contact, second machine? ANSWER: if you're a political hack, you ignore the dangers and make a big party out of it, in the presumptive hopes that it will make you look good. And let's face it, the Macross was supposed to be a symbol of hope for humanity, right there at the end of the Unification Wars. It would make sense that politicians would be urging--even desperate--for some ray of sunshine there to shine the way to a brighter future. Kinda ties in with the politician's comments to BG Global there after the launch, when he tells Global to go meet the enemy in space, and let the politicians handle the negotiations back on Earth. Vain, haughty, dismissive presumptuousness on the part of the politician. But why would they have been letting civilians live in and around the ship as it was being rebuilt, while the Unification War was still raging on? Would seem like far too much of a security risk during the war. Would make more sense if they let down their guard after it was over, say for a big publicity gimmick. And yet, Roy stuck the VF-1D nosecone on his forearm where the gunpod would go, and then in the next scene in fighter mode Roy shoots Regults down with the gunpod where the nosecone just was. My point is, just because the series showed it that way doesn't necessarily mean that it makes sense. Since the primary propulsion of Hikaru's racer was an atmospheric ducted fan, and he was only a teenager, it makes absolutely no sense to think that it would've had nonatmospheric outer-space-capable reaction control thrusters on the thing. RATO boosters do not RCS make. (Though if Basara can have his neato-skeeto plane, then I guess anything is possible with Hikaru's.) And the idea of Hikaru having a space-capable flightsuit for the tuna fish spacewalk was even dumber. If his suit were that airtight, then his skin would've overheated inside the racer in the atmosphere. It would've been made of a breathable fabric for comfort and safety's sake, which would've rendered it useless for a spacewalk. Probably the same deal for the flightsuit overalls of DYRL?, which is why they wear those bulky spacesuits on top of them for space travel. What was a giant tuna even doing floating around loose in outer space in the first place, for? If it had been swimming in the ocean around S. Ataria Island at the time of the spacefold, then it should've remained within the ocean water after the spacefold and frozen with the rest of the ocean. Conversely, if it freaked out because of the spacefold and jumped out of the water before the water froze, then after the spacefold, the vacuum of outer space should've subjected the fish to catastrophic decompression and exploded it to kingdom-come. (Tuna casserole, at best! ) It should not have ever been floating around loose. So there's no reason for safety locks on military bases or aboard military ships if you're not expecting civilian traffic, right? No need to batten down the hatches in rough weather, or to keep people away from the armory or the engine room? No need to keep people out of the captain's quarters? Or the hooch? The military would still need safety protocols, even if it didn't consider its own personnel a security risk. It seems like to me that when the ship was taking those minutes to prep for the spacefold, locking the doors would've been one of the many automated preparations. Yeah, they were running out. Still, that doesn't answer the difficulties with the giant tuna in space, or the flightsuit spacewalk (see above). Nor it does it even necessitate the spacewalk. Hikaru could've simply offered Minmei his portions of the rations, as a show of heroic, manly sacrifice. That would've accomplished the same purpose, without the silliness of the spacewalk. Not trying to overanalyze. I would simply add in a few lines of dialog that explained my concerns above, and I would've eliminated the racer- and tuna-in-space scenes. For all the bruhaha here, it wouldn't've constituted that big of a change from the show.