DreamsOfIshtar

Ishtar. <3 That is all.

As I stated above, just because you buy related merchandise doesn't guarantee you're 'supporting the work' -- you may be, but it's nowhere near actually buying what you watch, or more specifically, paying for what you consume. These arguments of 'I'd never buy it anyway, so my stealing it doesn't hurt anybody' are terribly naive. I have no intention of reiterating why. Sometimes I buy legit, sometimes I pirate. But when I pirate I know there's no legal justification. It's me and my personal morals -- as someone said above, sometimes we're 'cheap and lazy'. Fine. Just don't pretend you're not doing the wrong thing, that you're 'hurting nobody'. I hate to use a trite truism, but there really is no such thing as a free lunch -- just a lunch someone else pays for.

This doesn't really address the issue of the internet 'allowing' illegal downloading. 'Enabling' or, as sketchley put it, 'making it possible' is far more accurate. You might even say 'encouraging'. 'Because they can' and any chances of repercussion has nothing to do with being 'allowed'. We do it without permission; it's really that simple. Were the punishment more severe or likely, we might not, but it's still just as disallowed either way. I do not believe we deserve any sense of privilege simply from a fast internet connection and a little mutorrent competency. sketchley: thanks for that info. Tochiro is quick to remind me how underpaid most Japanese industry figures are -- be it the seiyuu, 'tarento' or producers. We had this same discussion regarding Hideaki Anno's supposed 'Eva Empire' -- people are too quick to believe that just because a franchise is popular that certain parties will be improportionately paid for it. From what I can tell, that's just not how it works in Japan. You can't really draw direct lines of income between the facets of a franchise -- a model Valkyrie, for example, might be only aesthetically linked to whatever Mikimoto or Kawamori created. Sure, there are probably some fees due for using said franchise, but I don't imagine much of the RRP of that model would see its way into any one pocket. And with that, we can probably lay to rest any such arguments of 'I pirate for great justice against the wicked overpaid fat Cats of [insert company here]!'

If no one buys the legit versions, then 'those people' really don't get squat...

Once-in-a-lifetime isn't a term I use lightly for events. A year ago I went to the world's biggest heavy metal* festival in Germany (way, way more money than Kanno-trip), and not even that was once-in-a-lifetime: I'll probably go back another year if the line-up calls me. This was different. You had singers who will likely never assemble again, the Warsaw Philharmonic -- but most importantly, you had the Woman herself calling the shots for 3 hours straight. Virtually no MC filler, and everything was specially-made for the night. Once-in-a-lifetime. I'll be honest: I wouldn't have done it for a raw Mac F/Macross 7 concert. The Kanno aspect was on a sort of unwritten checklist for me -- started with say, meeting Uematsu at a performance, then other anime/vgm composers. Kanno, to me, is the pinnacle of both. I've honestly no idea what will top that concert for me. Someone-I-keep-mentioning-here found a *spectacular* bootleg recording of the concert (we're talking quality almost up to par of an official release) that I can't stop listening to. And as he and I have both agreed, if there were a legit release of Tanabata Super-Sonic, 1) it'd be three discs of sheer Kanno love (and 3-cd live albums are rare enough as it is, never mind the nightmares of licensing) and 2) we'd pay a heck of a lot. But I have another justification for enjoying the bootleg of the concert: for me, it was too much to take in just once. I didn't even *hear* the brief Kiseki no Umi segment, and that final orchestral medley really, really deserves multiple listenings. While Tochiro is right to feel indignant that someone dared make a pirate recording, at least they're not selling it -- and since there's no plan to release an official, it's technically not biting into anyone else's pie. So ultimately, I am thankful someone did it and did it so well. (*my music tastes are as varied as the post mp3-age allows. I'd like to believe everyone's got their crazy spectrum of listening-goodness. )

And the next, final step of my Macross Lovin' dedication: I flew to Japan from Australia for a few days, so that I could go to the Macross-Frontier related Yoko Kanno concert with Tochiro in Saitama, and then registered on this forum to write a review for the benefit of those who couldn't get there. Sure, it was expensive, but I don't collect the toys...oh, sorry, models, which would certainly add up. I'll take a once-in-a-lifetime experience over material possessions anyday. That's just where I am in life now -- although I've never really been a collector, I'll forego all sorts of neat little goodies to add memories and stories to my life. Toys break, books get read, new models come out all the time. That's something that needs to be perpetuated, funded as such. I'd like to believe anyone who is willing to put in, say, 1000 US for Macross models/collectibles would trade that for the chance to attend a one-off concert instead.

Ensuring that your new dvd player is region-free used to be the highest priority when shopping -- here in Australia, we're locked to Pal, which used to be almost like a prison sentence (hey, we are a nation of ex-crims, maybe it's appropriate!), but local releases of anime and asian cinema in general are nowadays fairly abundant. And failing that, there is torrenting, etc. Interesting point -- salesmen are no longer allowed to tell you if a player is region-free. At best, you might be able to wheedle out a few hints if they're feeling friendly. The last player I bought was region-locked by default but a simple code entered upon setting up unlocked it. Naturally the big issue right now is Bluray region locking, because Pal bluray releases are...well, deplorable in comparison to NTSC. I just keep an eye on various sites that test for region-free releases.

Uhm, what money? If you're pirating, there is -no- money going back into anything. And if you're buying those knock-off Hong Kong jobs (and I know precisely the sorts, since I have more than a few myself), then that money is going into hands just as greedy as the 'companies', as you put it. Download anime yourself -- fine, if you're going to feel like you're making a stand against overpriced anime. But to buy bootlegs? You're just trading one gouger for another, since the makers of bootlegs don't pay *anything* and sell their goods to you. Also, 'helping someone pay their bills'? Are you that myopic that you don't realise even the legitimate companies do just that? They have employees, who rely directly on the money said companies make. You'd be well advised to read my posts so far to ascertain my own standpoint before replying -- I pirate as well, so please don't think I'm taking some sort of moral high ground.

Hi there. Maybe what you said about Bri and you writing the same is true, but I am not sure he would have written what you wrote. Looks like a fairly different attitude towards doing things legally to me.

...lively yet interesting. As opposed to...lively yet boring?...hm. Okay. To respond, likely for the last time myself: Sentence 1: yes. Sentence 2: yes. Sentence 3: no. You're relying on motivation. On 'would', not on 'should'. Person A would have bought it but didn't, and Person B had no intention of buying, and didn't -- this doesn't mean anything other than the fact that two copies of whatever it is were not purchased that could have been. Any copy not purchased but acquired is stolen. Is revenue lost. Whether they're kids who'd almost certainly (and let's not play with absolutes here) not acquire said anime if it HAD to be purchased, whether they're people who can or would purchase it but for whatever reason don't -- same outcome. One more unit not sold. The person putting on the internet IS acting illegally -- as is anyone accepting it knowing it's a stolen good. Thank you as well. Your views are surprisingly sympathetic for these 'kids', as though they are somehow victims of the easy system we Gen Xers might have put in place, or that they're entitled to torrents as the 'new television'. Surprising, since you separate yourself from them and so likely are older, and remember when this wasn't the case. I only wish I could less cynical or realistic about the situation, and accept that anyone with a net connection and a bit of torrent know-how deserves for free what the makers themselves deem to be worth at least something. I am also done.

Then they definitely don't count for any of the market share and I'm sorry what was your point again?

I made it up to episode 7 of Macross 7. (7/7, there's one for you to ponder, Tochiro!). Admittedly, I think that's all I ever had on vhs/vcd, but it really didn't grab me. I could get the rest and just don't feel the need to. The same applied to Robotech, actually -- that was always secondary to Transformers to me of a Saturday morning (hey, I was young!). In fact, no Macross series other than the original (which I've only recently marathoned) has demanded my viewing as a compelling experience. And this is okay, because it's aaaaall about the music. I mean, it's great in context, but it's definitely good enough to stand on its own. Okay, next step for how far I've gone for Macross Lovin'... Endured the English dub of Macross II multiple times and never once fast-forwarded/skipped the intro because 'Hush of two Million Years' is awesome.

There are some precedences to what you're saying, the most notable to me would be the Kiseki situation. Without getting into too many details, they went from being a fansubbing group (and fairly grey/illegal distribution of unlicensed work in the West, of which there was a heck of a lot in the 90s) to a legitimate company and then, I believe, some sort of demise no one seemed to notice. This backs up your suggestion that pirates (as I call myself and others who sometimes use sites like, I dunno, that bay place dot org) are actually capable of positive effects on the market. I didn't deny that. But they simply cannot be considered part of the market share *until* they cross the line from thief-of-product to legal-distributor-of-product. Support for sites like crunchyroll try to encourage that shift, not perpetuate the situation of production-->theft. I'm fairly sure I haven't seen many tasteful ads on the prominent torrent sites... An unexpected bonus is only unexpected once -- because having noticed it, one is going to try to promote it in the future. The magnitude of which is not really the issue, though, and I'm the first to say that Japan could do with a good kick up the butt regarding global releases instead of just making things for Japanese and relying on foreign distributors to do the rest of the work (be it simply releasing or, far less to my liking, localisation). 'People who would have bought a legitimate copy but haven't because they were able to download it' = 'The kids that download anime but who would never consider spending a penny on it' because if they were not, in any way, 'able to download it' they would have to go to a 'local shop [that] carried every anime in existence' -- if they wanted to watch said anime. You're working under the assumption that ''The kids that download anime but who would never consider spending a penny on it' only watch anime because it's free. That they'd never touch the legit market if there were no illegitimate sources. I think that's...well, my head's shaking again.

I'll avoid the Pythonesque-elation of How Far I Didn't Go and start small, as requested by Tochiro. I'd drive with the windows down singing 'Totsugeki Love Heart' far too loudly in a country that thinks Kylie Minogue is an artistic genius.

The greyness of right and wrong is more than ancient, and entirely too convoluted to expore here. In the example of the Korean grocery store owner (highly amusing!), I'd say the fault lay purely with Disney for not, if you'll pardon the crudity, protecting their assets. That's a fairly clean-cut case to me -- the legal idea of theft is far stronger than the moral. She might have been immoral but she still acted well within the envelope of widely-accepted law. Now if the shoe were on the other foot, and Disney stole her idea because she wasn't canny enough to protect it, of course we'd feel a bit more indignant -- and morally so. We'd sympathise with her, I'd hope, but ultimately accept that if Disney acted legally, that's all there is to it. In the Virgin case, the legality wasn't really under fire; it was a defamation of the girl's character, and a pretty darn savage one at that. That's what she 'won'. That it could all have been prevented with some watermarking etc. was about as irrelevant as her not putting the picture up in the first place. It all came down to what was done with it, not that something was done with it. And that's an interesting legal/moral intersection in itself, since 'defamation of character' is far more morally reprehensible than legal, in terms of ownership, etc. The rule of thumb is that if you take something that you are expected to pay for by the owners/sellers, you are stealing. Legally you might not be (as you've shown), but I think it'd take an unusually amoral person to do it without any idea that it is theft at some level. I may be slightly idealistic there, but I'm not so naive as to think that'd stop many people from making a buck or ten million. Which is another point people seem to struggle with: if you're not selling your stolen goods, maybe they're not really stolen. Sorry, they are -- you're just not putting yourself on any significant radars and the sharks have bigger fish to catch there. Because most of us will agree that in terms of theft, personal use is less reprehensible than turning a profit. Whether that's legal or moral or some typical mix thereof I leave up to you, the jury.