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Macross isnt what it used to be..


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#1 Vepariga

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 02:56 AM

I know this may sound like a rant but it has some point. bare with me.

Macross/DYRL was and is the best the series has to offer. The war and the characters struggles are the KEY features and are handled brillantly,keeping a certian air of realism with it.

Macross Plus,a great rivialy between friends and a AI singer that becomes obsessively dangerous. still,the Struggle and the feeling of what they are fighting for is strong and felt.

Macross Zero - Decent,birdman was alright,not great but the combat had a good feeling of desperatness.

Macross 7..starts to get abit outragous but retains that core feeling of macross,the music aspect though does start to overpower the actual character growth and combat.

Frontier..the series,in some episodes was brillant. But then there where some other episodes that just had you saying 'whats this'. I liked it but it felt like something was really missing,I didnt get that sense of weight or consequence that Macross and DRYL,hell even Plus offered.

MF Movie 1 - a decent film,the music aspect is alot stronger and over shadows some of the emotions i should be feeling for the characters,Alto's love triangle at this stage doesnt interest me at all.

MF movie 2 - just finished watching it and I must say..Disappointed. The first half was great,good sense of combat.A decent setup for a final goal. 2nd half just fell to peices,became random and it was like I was watching the fall of Macross..I mean (spoilers here) Sheryl gets sucked out into space and saved by a Ai-kun..Grace pops out of no where with a machine gun then pops out a microphone out of no where and says 'sing sheryl'..wtf...shes on stage singing and as soon as Ranka comes up to hug sheryl goes limp and hopless..come on..next we see the Galaxy surfing on debris through the clouds while the bridge springs out a old school sailing wheel...*facepalm*..Isamu's 2 second cameo..why bother..The songs and sheryl/rankas shinenagens overpowered the entire film,even the epic space fights felt more like they where there just to act like a music video.

The only character I actually cared about and became interesting was Brera.

seriously..I cant be the only one here that feels the music has just overpowered the entire series now,I remember when I used to actually care and the heavy feelings I got from the wars. but it just feels so over the top and commercial now.

#2 VF5SS

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 03:29 AM

nostalgia is a helluva drug

#3 Vepariga

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 03:46 AM

Indeed,it can be I know. But the change is pretty apparent. its like with MFmovie 2 they made it like Flashback 2012 but with a few story bits here and there,then music music music.

I dont know..maybe it is just me.

#4 VF5SS

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 03:58 AM

You may be suffering from fiction fatigue. May I suggest enjoying a good game of hockey to clear your head :3

#5 VF25-F

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 06:29 AM

I understand what you meant. In fact I was pretty disappointed by most of the Macross series and OVA that came after the first Macross.

For me Frontier was the closes to the original (TV series) and like it or not, it really revived the franchise for Macross. But not the Movie versions, like DYRL, if you had not watched the TV versions first you would not probably understand what's going on ( If you had watched the movie versions first, probably you get a headache from all the plot jumping here and there and why is there people singing, is it a musical?)

It leads me to conclude : DON'T give Kawamori full control, let him do the ground work and designs and let someone else do the story! He'll come up with outrageous stuff that in the end disappoints. (you can find that not only in Macross but in other Animes that he took control). Don't get me wrong, I really do admire the guy but his strong points are somewhere else.

The big question is - if it's not THIS then WHAT?

Would you be happier watching something totally new (some good, some bad but all of them have some good moments in it) or a sequel to the previous one? (which after sometime sounds like - flogging a dead horse)


To this effect, Kawamori chose to tell new stories and new adventures and let the bygone ones be something you would talk about to this day.


I have no answers. Another thing that worries me is that : Who will take over Macross when Kawamori is no longer around?

#6 VF5SS

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 06:38 AM

It leads me to conclude : DON'T give Kawamori full control


i dunno, that worked for DYRL :3

#7 Roy Focker

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 07:10 AM

I wonder maybe if Frontier was created just to sell music.

#8 UN Spacy

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 07:26 AM

Macross doing's just fine.

Maybe it's you that isn't what is used to be. :mellow:

#9 eugimon

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 08:07 AM

it's fun watching people slowly turn into their parents.

#10 Loop

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 08:41 AM

The surfing Macross Quarter was a homage to Eureka Seven.

#11 azrael

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 09:39 AM

Reminds me of The Simpsons 20th Anniversary Special hosted by Morgan Spurlock. One of the series producer responds to critics who say the show isn't funny anymore. And his retort is "Maybe you've changed."

it's fun watching people slowly turn into their parents.


Isn't it?

nostalgia is a helluva drug


Yah. Look what it does to the fans of the bastardized franchise of Macross.

#12 SchizophrenicMC

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 10:08 AM

This is like saying the new season of Pokémon is bad. It's exactly the same, you're just too old to appreciate the new one, and feel too much nostalgia for the old one. (Excuse me, I was born in the 90's, I watched Pokémon)

I think the new Macross stuff is good. It's different, but it's good.

#13 Pterobat

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 10:52 AM

There's no shame in feeling that later works don't capture the same magic. Nothing in fandom's really rational anyway.

But if somebody can back up their assertions with reasoned explorations, the idea should be open to discussion--talk about the "why", back it up with context, etc., and don't assume it's just an irrational distortion.

I used to be embarrassed that I never enjoyed anything related to Macross as strongly as I enjoyed SDFM, to the point where if the other things weren't Macross, I wouldn't have labelled myself a fan at all. Yet I realized I should just trust in my own feelings, and that it wasn't some kind of failing. I was always open to exploring new Macross, and to liking it, it just never happened to "click" with me on a major level. I understood why, and trusted in what I felt instead of assuming I was just doing it wrong, that I was being too demanding or focusing "too much" on older stuff.

However, I did enjoy the Frontier movies, which confirmed that it was more of an "it's not me it's you" thing. Maybe whatever new thing comes along next, you might enjoy.

That being said, I didn't find Sheryl or Ranka's stuff to be overpowering at the expense of the rest of the storyline, because Macross has always been as much about the arguably "feminine" sensibilities as the space battles. The emotional stuff does tend to be what interests me more, and Sheryl was my favourite non-SDFM character, so this all mattered even less.

#14 Dynaman

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 11:00 AM

Frontier - the most interesting character was Sheryl for me, when she is down in the dumps mentally (and sick I believe, have to watch again to figure out exactly when) and stuck in a shelter with many other civilians she starts to sing just to take their minds off the attack - and in the process finds the inner strength to go on (and be a better person) after her world fell apart.

#15 Vepariga

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 03:16 PM

I suppose I should have titled this topic 'do you thing the music aspect overshadows what emtional response you should feel towards the characters' :P

Dont get me wrong,I enjoy Frontier and Love the Mecha showcased,its just that attachment and feeling I used to have with the previous series that I dont feel in Frontier. Like,Anyone could die in Frontier and I wouldnt feel anything for them because the songs and Alto in a dress (I dont care how many times they do it I'd never get used to it,should have just had a female lead) Overshadow.

The surfing Macross Quarter was a homage to Eureka Seven.

Thats nice,but whats it doing in Macross. no need for it.

#16 VF5SS

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 06:01 PM

I wonder maybe if Frontier was created just to sell music.


Every Macross series is created to sell merchandise. It's a robot show and the essence of the genre is hocking the merch. If anything, Space Battleship Yamato was one of the first to push the idea of using popular singers to do intro themes and then selling the singles. Victor was really keen on capitalizing on this.

One of my fellow writers on CDX is a huge vinyl collector and wrote a neat summary of the connection between anime and record companies

http://www.collectio...e#comment-24003

#17 anime52k8

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 08:09 PM

Thats nice,but whats it doing in Macross. no need for it.


because it's awesome, 'nuff said.

Personally, I liked the cast of Frontier the most of the varoius macross productions.

#18 Freiflug88

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 09:00 PM

IMO Macross Frontier shed a lot of its old Macross look when they replaced Haruhiko Mikimoto with Risa Ebata. Her artwork is great, but naturally the Gravion Zwei influence doesn't exactly carry the nostalgia of Mikimoto's old Macross works.

i dunno, that worked for DYRL :3


I believe your CDX podcast of Macross Zero/Frontier (can't remember which exactly) said it best that Kawamori is a "George Lucas of anime" that works best as a co-director.

Edited by Freiflug88, 31 March 2012 - 09:01 PM.


#19 taksraven

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 11:54 PM

A lot of people gave up on Doctor Who when it returned in 2005. You know what, they were welcome to do so if you wanted. I enjoy the new stuff but I can accept that not everybody else does. No big deal. Same goes with the new Evangelion films, some old fans like them, others don't. Same goes for Star Wars and so on and so on.......

I challenge any maker of popular entertainment to create an entertainment "product" (note the use of that word) that is still popular with all of its fans for thirty years. Impossible? I think so.

You are getting worked up by an entertainment "product". Why bother?

#20 PetarB

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 01:21 AM

My favourite Macross iteration is 'Plus' - It really created a new 'adult' version of the series, and took it to a new level. Then Frontier, then DYRL, then SDF Macross and so on from there are my favourites. Am I a heretic?

#21 VF5SS

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 03:01 AM

I believe your CDX podcast of Macross Zero/Frontier (can't remember which exactly) said it best that Kawamori is a "George Lucas of anime" that works best as a co-director.


I don't think you remember what I said there at all.

#22 Bri

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 04:51 AM

Every Macross series is created to sell merchandise. It's a robot show and the essence of the genre is hocking the merch. If anything, Space Battleship Yamato was one of the first to push the idea of using popular singers to do intro themes and then selling the singles. Victor was really keen on capitalizing on this.


True, but you can argue that Frontier was the first Macross that played the character goods side of merchandising as much as the mecha. Character marketing is pretty much the norm for late night anime.

#23 VF5SS

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 05:03 AM

Well that's just a sign of the times. High quality character goods used to be the purview of limited run Garage kit makers and a few low quality official products (see the ARII figures).

The refinement of the PVC figure market has allowed for characters to get an equal share of the merchandising, which makes sense to me as they are very important to a lasting franchise.

Almost every Macross series has the same potential as Frontier to push character goods. Imagine if the girlie figure market was there in 94-95 to render each of Mylene's two dozen outfits for waiting otaku :3

#24 Bri

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 05:11 AM

The refinement of the PVC figure market has allowed for characters to get an equal share of the merchandising, which makes sense to me as they are very important to a lasting franchise.

I agree that it's a healthy development for a franchise. Still I can understand that some old time fans get a bit riled by the tropes and archetypes of modern anime being introduced to Macross.

Almost every Macross series has the same potential as Frontier to push character goods. Imagine if the girlie figure market was there in 94-95 to render each of Mylene's two dozen outfits for waiting otaku :3

or Dynamite 7 stretched to a normal, one cour, yuri fanservice show? ;)

#25 VF5SS

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 05:16 AM

I agree that it's a healthy development for a franchise. Still I can understand that some old time fans get a bit riled by the tropes and archetypes of modern anime being introduced to Macross.


Macross arguably created most of those modern archetypes. It's the strength of a production that allows a show to use them effectively to transcend common pitfalls and trite storytelling.

Let's not even get started on the moe in Orguss. I mean come on, Kei-sama :3

or Dynamite 7 stretched to a normal, one cour, yuri fanservice show? ;)


Naw we have Mylene Beat for that :v

#26 Bri

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 05:24 AM

Macross arguably created most of those modern archetypes. It's the strength of a production that allows a show to use them effectively to transcend common pitfalls and trite storytelling.


I don't think Macross was that influential. Most is derived from Anno and eroge games. 'though...go back far enough and everything can be blamed on Go Nagai. He who gave us filth ^_^

#27 nexxstrait

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 05:46 AM

I understand Vepariga.
I personally do like Frontier, but It's certainly aimed at a juvenile audience. The current japanese trend of oversexualizing girls annoys the hell out of me. But it's true that I've grown up. I just wish Macross grew up with me and still hope there will be more adult Macross stories still to come.

#28 Omegablue

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 07:38 AM

The way I see it, is that Frontier was an attempt to resurrect the original characters, and modernize it for our present very emo like youth. And in between, lots of Aqaurion cheese.

Really, that finale battle of Frontier series was beyond lame. Stupid giant projections of singing girls in between a galatic space battle and space lobsters, and of course with the most predictable ending of every cliche anime.
Just as I thought Macross 7's acid raping of a space opera couldn't be toppled, Frontier came along. :rolleyes:

And undoubtedly Alto is the combo of Edward and Kristen Stewart from Twilight. Confused and unrealistic. :angry:

Regardless, I still love it, and remain loyal to the franchise for having delievered the original, Zero and Plus. :D
And all the Valk's look awesome, even from Frontier and seven. :)

Edited by Omegablue, 01 April 2012 - 07:39 AM.


#29 SchizophrenicMC

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 09:03 AM

Robotech is best Macross. Problem solved.

Spoiler

Edited by SchizophrenicMC, 01 April 2012 - 09:04 AM.


#30 Mommar

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 11:20 AM

I guess it would be more fair to say Macross isn't in the place that you would ideally want it to be. To me the SDFM is the best for several reasons. While Hikaru was stupid and immature... aren't we all when we're young. I never really thought of him as whiny. And how many of us knew a good looking, popular girl who was just a little too spoiled and little too immature like Minmay? And once you finally grow up and sort yourself out how many of us have learned to appreciate someone more like Misa, someone who behaves like a woman instead of a child? I think the characters, while still caricatures, were realistic from a universal perspective. The later series had characters that were, for lack of a better term, too Japanese. They were what has grown out of the Japanese anime culture which I feel is unrealistic and stupid for everyone. So in terms of character I think the later Macross miss the mark. Plus... still had some of it but I'll get to why it wasn't nearly as good in a minute.

In terms of gravitas they all lose to the original. Genocide of humanity, the complete loss of the human race versus... losing a few colonies, or in the case of Plus Guld (I'm ignoring the AI taking over SDF-1 thing because that felt shoe-horned, stupid and completely unnecessary to the plot.) Macross 7 and Frontier had no real consequences. Hell, even the principal heroes of SDFM eventually befell the fate that almost happened to the Mac 7 and Frontier cast so it's established in canon that losing colonies means nothing. You lose a colony, you send out another ship. It worked for the British West Indian Company, why not earth? Other then maybe liking the characters and not wanting them to die losing the conflict meant nothing. In SDFM the world was destroyed. Even in their victory it was almost complete annihilation. You can't beat that... well, ironically Robotech revisited that devastation of Humanity which maintained the gravity but lost everything else, including the animation. The argument is that each story covered a different topic and annihilation may not be important. Frontier is about privatization of military forces... but it ended with an emo whiny kid blinking off into the aether with super crab lady after flying in with his "super plane." Mac 7 had a guy flying a plane with a guitar and firing speakers at his enemies. SDFM was animation but it was adult. Mac7 and Frontier were cartoons by comparison. Plus... had potential to be a very personal, tragic story but ended with a silly AI controlling a giant super powered space cruiser. It became silly fanboy masturbation fantasy. What if one Valkyrie went up against the SDF-1??? I don't care, it's a bad idea. Isamu should have been forced to kill Guld and he should have been kicked out of the UN Spacy for it. Then his minor reappearance in Frontier as a member of a private security force would have at least shown us he hadn't given up or there was life for him afterwards rather then... hey, here's that older guy you used to like! *wink wink*

In my last point everyone's involvement was important. Nobody in SDFM had a "super" fighter different from anyone else. The final battle wasn't one by one person. Even as good as Max and Milia were, it took everyone. The SDF-1. The Zentraedi who switch their allegiance. The non-violent like Minmay contributed in their own way. There was still unified fronts in Mac7 and Frontier but they came down to "chosen one" type characters which was silly and not like SDFM. Plus does not apply here because it was a different sort of story, which I commend, I feel it should have been about the tragedy of two talented men in a broken relationship falling from grace... not a battle with AI controlled toys.

#31 Archer

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 12:12 PM

Personally, I enjoyed both the original macross series and macross frontier a lot, but there is one key point to Macross Frontier that I don't think worked very well as compared to the original series.

In the original series, it makes sense that teenegers like Hikary or Max got to fly valks: they were mass produced and most of the experienced pilots had been killed in the previous wars, paving way to younger kids becoming pilots. Sure, the fact that they got cool color schemes was probably not warranted, but nothing more beyond that (they even started out in -1A's). On the other hand, in Frontier, which at the beginning is at peace, a young, not very experienced teenager gets access to the Military's brand new and experimental fighter that is probably worth millions? And then he gets to keep piloting it even after nearly losing 2 machines...? The NUNS probably had a few handfuls of better pilots that could make better use of the machine than Alto.

That really is the only thing that bugged me in Frontier, but I guess it was what was necessary to keep mainstream audiences in check...

#32 Bri

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 12:43 PM

I think the characters, while still caricatures, were realistic from a universal perspective. The later series had characters that were, for lack of a better term, too Japanese. They were what has grown out of the Japanese anime culture which I feel is unrealistic and stupid for everyone.

I would replace "too Japanese" with simply "niche". Anime characters are increasingly designed to appeal to what the fans like, not as to what would appeal to a wider audience.

In terms of gravitas they all lose to the original. Genocide of humanity, the complete loss of the human race versus... losing a few colonies, or in the case of Plus Guld (I'm ignoring the AI taking over SDF-1 thing because that felt shoe-horned, stupid and completely unnecessary to the plot.) Macross 7 and Frontier had no real consequences. Hell, even the principal heroes of SDFM eventually befell the fate that almost happened to the Mac 7 and Frontier cast so it's established in canon that losing colonies means nothing. You lose a colony, you send out another ship. It worked for the British West Indian Company, why not earth? Other then maybe liking the characters and not wanting them to die losing the conflict meant nothing. In SDFM the world was destroyed. Even in their victory it was almost complete annihilation. You can't beat that... well, ironically Robotech revisited that devastation of Humanity which maintained the gravity but lost everything else, including the animation. The argument is that each story covered a different topic and annihilation may not be important. Frontier is about privatization of military forces... but it ended with an emo whiny kid blinking off into the aether with super crab lady after flying in with his "super plane." Mac 7 had a guy flying a plane with a guitar and firing speakers at his enemies. SDFM was animation but it was adult. Mac7 and Frontier were cartoons by comparison. Plus... had potential to be a very personal, tragic story but ended with a silly AI controlling a giant super powered space cruiser. It became silly fanboy masturbation fantasy. What if one Valkyrie went up against the SDF-1??? I don't care, it's a bad idea. Isamu should have been forced to kill Guld and he should have been kicked out of the UN Spacy for it. Then his minor reappearance in Frontier as a member of a private security force would have at least shown us he hadn't given up or there was life for him afterwards rather then... hey, here's that older guy you used to like! *wink wink*


Gravitas changes over time. Macross series have used fears (real or part of popular fiction) that were in vogue at the time of production. SDFM reflected on the end of the world at a time when the cold war could turn hot at any moment. Plus is heavily influenced by cyberpunk, Zero uses the fears of terrorism at the turn of the century, arguably Macross 7's protodevlin tied in with the renaissance of the supernatural in the 90s and Frontier runs with the corporate abuse. The current generation of viewers will have a different perspective on what is frightening from those who watched at the time when SDFM was new.

In my last point everyone's involvement was important. Nobody in SDFM had a "super" fighter different from anyone else. The final battle wasn't one by one person. Even as good as Max and Milia were, it took everyone. The SDF-1. The Zentraedi who switch their allegiance. The non-violent like Minmay contributed in their own way. There was still unified fronts in Mac7 and Frontier but they came down to "chosen one" type characters which was silly and not like SDFM. Plus does not apply here because it was a different sort of story, which I commend, I feel it should have been about the tragedy of two talented men in a broken relationship falling from grace... not a battle with AI controlled toys.

hmm, only Basara was a chosen one, or more to the point, a messiah. Alto had no more impact on Frontier's storyline than Hikaru had on SDFM's.

Edited by Bri, 01 April 2012 - 02:51 PM.


#33 VF5SS

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 12:54 PM

Mac 7 had a guy flying a plane with a guitar and firing speakers at his enemies.



Macross 1 accidentally a whole spaceship transform into a giant man and shoot guns at people :3

#34 EXO

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 02:35 PM

Macross 1 accidentally a whole spaceship transform into a giant man and shoot guns at people :3


A spaceship turned into a giant man? What episode was that? :rolleyes:

The lengths people will go thru to sound smarter than others.

#35 VF5SS

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 03:34 PM

Episode 5 , "Transformation"

gotta know your canon

I don't completely disagree with Mommar's sentiments but I just find the cherry picking kinda funny. I mean I do a lot too so whatevs.

There is certainly an issue of escalation in Macross stories. It's the nature of fiction and a habit of the franchise. I appreciate that the Frontier movies toned back the threat of the Varja from galaxy spanning to mostly confined to one planet. After Macross 7's villain almost succeeding in sucking the life from the universe, there's only so much that can be done afterwards.

However one cannot judge fiction wholly on the scale of the conflict. Judging a show entirely on what's at stake isn't gravitas, it's more narrative gamesmanship. See also almost everything Gainax did with robot shows from Gunbuster to Gurren Lagann :3

The original Macross always had that strange luck of getting extended past the obvious conclusion. While these episodes do give the series a somewhat unique touch (though I'd argue the last part of Dougram after the big rebellion ends is very similar in how it plays out), I think it's rather interesting that the writers had to scale back the supposed devastation to less than Hokuto no Ken levels. Earth is rather happily habitable after all those unforgettable images of genocide. It's a nice extended metaphor for hope and rebirth in the wake of destruction (kinda like what Aries said to Roy in Zero).

I will agree that Macross hasn't really "grown up." Personally I think doing so would hurt its rather whimsical naivete. Sometimes it does dress itself up like an angry twenty something.

I feel like the powers that be understand this but almost always give a sincere effort to crafting a story. I don't think it has come to point where the silly premise is being used as an excuse for stupidity. At least not on the level of "it's for kids, stupid! so we can be stupid!" like how some people in defense of other popular franchises ;3




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