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HG and Robotech Debates, ep. 8

HG Robotech Evil Complicated Harmony Gold Legal talk

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#1 azrael

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Posted 25 October 2011 - 08:31 PM

Part 1: August 2003 - April 2009
Part 2: April 2009-August 2009
Part 3: August 2009-October 2009
Part 4: October 2009 - January 2010
Part 5: January 2010 - May 2010
Part 6: May 2010 - May 2011
Part 7: May 2011-October 2011

No one knows the exact details of the 1984 contract between Harmony Gold and Tatsunoko Productions because this contract has not been made public. However, we can infer what the contract entails from Harmony Gold's actions and inactions. I'll keep this first post updated with the most reliable information.

SDF Macross
On October 1st, 1982, Tatsunoko Productions asked for and received the worldwide (excluding Japan) film distribution and merchandising rights from Big West as compensation for their animation assistance with SDF Macross. On January 15th, 1984, Harmony Gold licensed, and later acquired, these same film distribution and merchandising rights from Tatsunoko. However, the intellectual property rights (copyrights) for SDF Macross still resides with Big West. What this means is that Harmony Gold can legally distribute the SDF Macross footage outside of Japan (ie: the AnimEigo and ADV Macross DVD's) and edit the footage at their discretion (ie: Robotech). However, they cannot create any new animation or movies using the SDF Macross characters and mecha because they do not have the intellectual property rights (copyrights). Comic books and videogames are excluded as these fall under the category of merchandising rights.

Macross: Do You Remember Love
Harmony Gold also has the worldwide (excluding Japan) merchandising rights to Macross: Do You Remember Love. However, they do not have the film distribution rights nor the intellectual property rights (copyrights) to this movie. What this means is that Harmony Gold can legally license the distribution of DYRL merchandise (ie: Toynami's DYRL Super Posable toys) worldwide (excluding Japan). However, Harmony Gold cannot release DYRL on video, nor can they create any new animation or movies using the DYRL characters and mecha. Comic books and videogames are excluded as these fall under the category of merchandising rights.

On a related note, in 1988, Celebrity's Just For Kids released DYRL (as 'Macross in Clash of the Bionoids') in the USA under a license from Toho International Co. Ltd. In 1995, Best Film & Video Corp. released DYRL (as 'Superdimensional Fortress Macross') in the USA under a license from Big West. At Anime Central 2001, Robert Woodhead (of AnimEigo) was asked about DYRL and he said that nobody knows who owns the worldwide (excluding Japan) film distribution rights anymore.


Macross II, Macross Plus and Macross 7 Trash
The film distribution rights for Macross II and Macross Plus were licensed from Big West, by U.S. Renditions (1992) and Manga Entertainment (1995), for release in the USA without any involvement from Harmony Gold. Likewise, Macross 7 Trash was licensed from Big West, by GlÚnat (1998), for release in France without any involvement from Harmony Gold. In 2003, Tokyopop announced that they would release Macross 7 Trash in the USA under a license from Harmony Gold, however, the manga was never published and no official explanation was given.

Harmony Gold said that they were not involved with Macross II and Macross Plus because "no one was minding the store" at that time (source needed). The subsequent Tokyo District Court ruling determined that Tatsunoko Productions (and by extension Harmony Gold) did not have any copyrights to the Macross derivatives (ie: Macross II, Macross Plus), thereby rendering the "no one was minding the store" explanation moot.


The rest of the series
As for the rest of the Macross series (ie: Frontier, 7, et al), Harmony Gold only has certain rights to these. In 1999 and 2002, Harmony Gold tradedmarked the name 'Macross' in the USA, Canada, Germany, and the United Kingdom. What this means is that any series and merchandising featuring the 'Macross' trademark would have to compensate Harmony Gold for the use of that trademark in those respective countries. Harmony Gold also trademarked 'U.N. Spacy' in the USA and Canada. In the European Union, 'U.N. Spacy' was trademarked in November 2007 and is held by Yugenkaisya Suneast trading (aka Suneast Co.Ltd) from Tokyo, Japan.*


This is just my understanding of the current legal situation. It may not be 100% accurate, so any corrections are welcome.

Sources:
Harmony Gold et al v. FASA Corporation et al, 1996 WL 332689 (N.D.Ill.): http://terrania.us/hg-fasa/

Macross 7 Trash published in France by GlÚnat - http://www.macrosswo...?...st&p=732684

"Fun at Acen" - http://groups.google...27c03d7fffd14ff

"Tatsunoko Wins Macross Lawsuit" - http://www.animenews...macross-lawsuit

"Macross Lawsuit" - http://www.animenews...macross-lawsuit

Big West statement - http://web.archive.o...ents/index.html

Loo, E.:"Separated at Birth", Animerica, 2003, Vol.11, No.1, p. 47

"Tokyopop to Publish Macross 7 Trash Manga" - http://www.animenews...s-7-trash-manga

Tom Bateman states that Harmony Gold acquired DYRL merchandising rights - http://www.robotech....mp;pagenumber=3

Canada trademark filing - http://www.ic.gc.ca/...ntIndexOnPage=1

United Kingdom trademark filing - http://www.ipo.gov.u...sticnum=2204547

European Union trademark filing - http://oami.europa.e...1/003853926.htm

United States, Germany and Spain trademark filing - These websites do not allow direct linking and must be searched manually.

*A huge thanks to Bri for getting the trademark information!


Compiling the court documents we have into a simple, itemized list:

25 February 2002 Ruling (Studio Nue owns the 41 disputed designs)
http://www.courts.go...mp;hanreiKbn=06

02 October 2002 Appeal (Tatsunoko's appeal of the above - rejected)
http://www.courts.go...mp;hanreiKbn=06

20 January 2003 Ruling (Tatsunoko owns economic rights to Ep1-36) (Dug up for me by Talos)
http://www.courts.go...mp;hanreiKbn=06

25 September 2003 Appeal (Studio Nue's appeal of the above - rejected)
http://www.courts.go...mp;hanreiKbn=06

01 July 2004 Ruling (Tatsunoko's demand for restitution against Big West & Bandai - rejected)
http://www.courts.go...mp;hanreiKbn=06

27 October 2005 Appeal (Tatsunoko's appeal of the above - rejected)
http://www.courts.go...mp;hanreiKbn=06


Serial #75750692
Word Mark MACROSS
Goods and Services IC 025. US 022 039. G & S: [ Socks, footwear, shirts, sweatshirts, pajamas, warm-up suits, coats, shorts, gym shorts dresses, clothing belts, bandannas, sweaters, gloves, ear muffs, neckwear, ski wear, slacks, sun visors, suspenders, turtlenecks vests ] headwear [ bathrobes, beachwear ]. FIRST USE: 20010930. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 20010930
Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING

Serial #76382155
Word Mark MACROSS
Translations The English translation of the Japanese characters "Ma-Ku-Ro-Su" which means "MACROSS". The English translation of the Chinese characters "Chou Jikuu Yousai" is "super dimension fortress". The entire title is pronounced "Chou Jikuu Yousai Ma-Ku-Ro-Su" which is officially translated as "Super Dimension Fortress Macross".
Goods and Services IC 016. US 002 005 022 023 029 037 038 050. G & S: Comic books [ and novellas ]. FIRST USE: 19841203. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19841203
IC 028. US 022 023 038 050. G & S: Toy action figures. FIRST USE: 20020227. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 20020227
Mark Drawing Code (3) DESIGN PLUS WORDS, LETTERS, AND/OR NUMBERS
Design Search Code 26.11.01 - Rectangles as carriers or rectangles as single or multiple line borders
26.11.21 - Rectangles that are completely or partially shaded
28.01.03 - Asian characters; Chinese characters; Japanese characters
Serial Number 76382155
Filing Date March 13, 2002

Serial # 76480124
Word Mark MACROSS
Goods and Services IC 041. US 100 101 107. G & S: Animated cartoon series delivered via a global computer network, television and satellite. FIRST USE: 20010800. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 20010800
Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING
Serial Number 76385551
Filing Date March 14, 2002
Current Filing Basis 1A
Original Filing Basis 1A
Published for Opposition October 29, 2002

Serial #76288366
Word Mark MACROSS
Goods and Services IC 009. US 021 023 026 036 038. G & S: Prerecorded video cassettes and compact discs featuring music and animation from an animated cartoon series; computer game software based on an animated cartoon series. FIRST USE: 19850114. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19850114
Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING
Serial #76385551
Word Mark MACROSS
Goods and Services IC 041. US 100 101 107. G & S: Animated cartoon series delivered via a global computer network, television and satellite. FIRST USE: 20010800. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 20010800
Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING

Serial #76382155
Word Mark MACROSS
Translations The English translation of the Japanese characters "Ma-Ku-Ro-Su" which means "MACROSS". The English translation of the Chinese characters "Chou Jikuu Yousai" is "super dimension fortress". The entire title is pronounced "Chou Jikuu Yousai Ma-Ku-Ro-Su" which is officially translated as "Super Dimension Fortress Macross".
Goods and Services IC 016. US 002 005 022 023 029 037 038 050. G & S: Comic books [ and novellas ]. FIRST USE: 19841203. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19841203 IC 028. US 022 023 038 050. G & S: Toy action figures. FIRST USE: 20020227. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 20020227
Mark Drawing Code (3) DESIGN PLUS WORDS, LETTERS, AND/OR NUMBERS
Design Search Code 26.11.01 - Rectangles as carriers or rectangles as single or multiple line borders
26.11.21 - Rectangles that are completely or partially shaded
28.01.03 - Asian characters; Chinese characters; Japanese characters

Serial #76480124
Typed Drawing
Word Mark MACROSS
Goods and Services IC 028. US 022 023 038 050. G & S: Toy action figures. FIRST USE: 20020227. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 20020227
Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING


Just out of curiosity, I decided to do a search in the US Copyright database for "Macross" (I'm not sure I can directly link each reference but it's easy to do a lookup anyways. Linky)

Macross; Producer: Tatsunoko Production Company, Ltd.
Type of Work: Recorded Document
Document Number: V3449D401
Date of Recordation: 2000-03-06
Entire Copyright Document: V3449 D401 P1-3
Date of Execution: 15Jan84
Title: Macross; animated TV series / Producer: Tatsunoko Production Company, Ltd.
Notes: Original license agreement.
Party 1: Tatsunoko Production Company, Ltd.
Party 2: Harmony Gold Ltd. USA.

Names: Tatsunoko Production Company, Ltd.
Harmony Gold Ltd. USA

Macross: episodes 1-36. By Tatsunoko Production Company, Ltd.
Type of Work: Motion Picture
Registration Number / Date: PAu002503627 / 2000-03-13
Supplement to: PAu000740323 / 1985
Title: Macross: episodes 1-36. By Tatsunoko Production Company, Ltd.
Copyright Claimant: Harmony Gold USA, Inc. & Tatsunoko Production Company, Ltd. (on original appl.: Japanese soundtrack & story)
Previous Registration: (on original appl.: English version including animation prev.reg.)
Supplement to Registration: PAu 740-323, 1985
Contents: Bobbytrap -- Countdown -- Spacefold -- Lin Minmei -- The transformation -- The Daidarus attack -- Bye-bye Mars -- The longest birthday -- Miss Macross -- The blind game -- First contact -- The big escape -- Blue wind -- Gloval's report -- Chinatown -- Kung fu dandy -- Phantasm -- Pineapple salad -- Bursting point -- Paradise lost -- Micro-cosmos -- Love concert -- Drop out -- Goodbye girl -- Virgin road -- The messenger -- Love floats away -- My album -- Loli's song -- Viva Mariya -- Satan's dolls -- Broken heart -- Rainy night -- Private time -- Romanesque -- A gentle farewell.

Variant title: Macross: episodes 1-36.
Other Title: The transformation.
The Daidarus attack.
The longest birthday.
The blind game.
The big escape.
The messenger.
A gentle farewell.
Names: Tatsunoko Production Company, Ltd.
Harmony Gold USA, Inc.

Macross : episode no. 1-36.
Type of Work: Motion Picture
Registration Number / Date: PAu000740323 / 1985-03-28
Supplemented by: PAu002503627 / 2000-03-13
Title: Macross : episode no. 1-36.
Description: 21 videocassettes (525 min.) : sd., col. ; 3/4 in.
Notes: Animated.
Language: In Japanese.
Credits: Produced by Tatsunoko Production Company, Ltd.
Copyright Claimant: Harmony Gold U. S. A., Inc., and Tatsunoko Production Company, Ltd.
Date of Creation: 1983
Authorship on Application: animation, story, soundtrack: Tatsunoko Production Company, Ltd., employer for hire.
Previous Registration: Preexisting material: English version including animation.
Basis of Claim: New Matter: "Japanese soundtrack and story."
Copyright Note: See also Macross: episodes 1-36; Reg. 13Mar00; PAu 2-503-627

Variant title: Macross : episode no. 1-36
Names: Harmony Gold U. S. A., Inc.
Tatsunoko Production Company, Ltd.


And then this:

Macross.
Type of Work: Visual Material
Registration Number / Date: VAu000534107 / 2002-05-17
Title: Macross.
Description: Drawings.
Copyright Claimant: Kabushiki Kaisha Studio Nue & Kabushiki Kaisha Big West
Date of Creation: 1982
Authorship on Application: artwork: Kabushiki Kaisha Studio Nue, employer for hire.

Names: Kabushiki Kaisha Studio Nue
Kabushiki Kaisha Big West


Majority of the references, as I understand it, of Macross relate to SDFM. :rolleyes: I need to find the Japan Copyright and Trademark databases just to see what's listed in there. Posted Image


Warner Brothers' licenses of Harmony Gold properties:

=======================================
Type of Work: Recorded Document
Document Number: V3586D834
Date of Recordation: 2010-02-12
Entire Copyright Document: V3586 D834 P1
Date of Execution: 1Oct09; date of cert.: 9Feb10
Title: Robotech.
Party 1: Harmony Gold USA, Inc. & Warner Brothers Pictures, a division of WB Studio Enterprises, Inc.

Names: Harmony Gold USA, Inc.
Warner Brothers Pictures
WB Studio Enterprises, Inc. Warner Brothers Pictures
========================================
Type of Work: Recorded Document
Document Number: V3570D412
Date of Recordation: 2008-09-30
Entire Copyright Document: V3570 D412 P1-6
Date of Execution: as of 16Aug07
Title: Robotech & 57 other titles.
Notes: Assignment.
Party 1: Warner Brothers Pictures, a division of WB Studio Enterprises, Inc.
Party 2: Warner Brothers Entertainment, Inc.
Links: List of Titles

Names: Warner Brothers Pictures
WB Studio Enterprises, Inc. Warner Brothers Pictures
Warner Brothers Entertainment, Inc.
This list contains titles in document V3570D677
Document title: The macross saga & 52 other titles.
The complete document is: V3570 D677 P1-7
=======================================================
Type of Work: Recorded Document
Document Number: V3570D677
Date of Recordation: 2008-09-30
Entire Copyright Document: V3570 D677 P1-7
Date of Execution: 2Apr08
Title: The macross saga & 52 other titles.
Notes: Add. ti.: Robotech. Option agreement.
Party 1: Harmony Gold USA, Inc.
Party 2: Warner Brothers Pictures, a division of WB Studio Enterprises, Inc.
Links: List of Titles

Other Title: Robotech.
Names: Harmony Gold USA, Inc.
Warner Brothers Pictures
WB Studio Enterprises, Inc. Warner Brothers Pictures
========================================================
List of titles:
001 The macross saga : otherwise k.a. The super dimension fortress macross.
002 The robotech masters : otherwise k.a. Super dimension cavalry southern cross.
003 Robotech: the new generation : otherwise k.a. Genesis climber mospeada.
004 Robotech: the shadow chronicles.
005 The sentinels-1987.
006 Robotech 3000.
007 Robotech comics.
008 Robotech role playing games.
009 Robotech novels / by Jack McKinney.
010 Robotech battlecry.
011 Robotech: the macross saga.
012 Robotech: invasion.
013 Robotech: the new generation.
014 Robotech book-the art of robotech: the shadow chronicles.
015 Robotech comics-DC (1984-present)
016 Robotech defenders 1-1984.
017 Robotech defenders 2-1984.
018 Robotech: from the stars-2002/2003.
019 Robotech: the macross saga reprints 2002-2003.
020 Robotech: sourcebook-2003.
021 Robotech from the stars trade paperback-2003.
022 Love & war-2003.
023 Robotech invasion-2004.
024 Robotech: prelude to the shadow chronicles-2005-2006.
025 Genesis.
026 Battle cry.
027 Homecoming.
028 Battle hymn.
029 Force of arms.
030 Doomsday.
031 Southern cross.
032 Metal fire.
033 The final nightmare.
034 Invid invasion.
035 Metamorphosis.
036 Symphony of light.
037 The devil's hand (the sentinels)
038 Dark powers (the sentinels)
039 Death dance (the sentinels)
040 World killers (the sentinels)
041 Rubicon (the sentinels)
042 The end of the circle.
043 The zentraedi rebellion.
044 The masters' gambit.
045 Before the invid storm.
046 The Macross saga: battlecry (#1-3)
047 The Macross saga: doomsday (#4-6)
048 The Masters saga: the Southern cross (#7-9)
049 The new generation: the invid invasion (#10-12)
050 The sentinels 3-in-1 (#13-15)


Harmony Gold's trademark request for "Macross" in Japan and Asia - Denied
Issued: 1-24-2004
http://shohyo.shinke...?number=1088731
http://shohyo.shinke...?number=1088733

Additional Resources:
What is Intellectual Property?
Did You Say "Intellectual Property"? It's a Seductive Mirage

#2 EXO

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Posted 25 October 2011 - 08:33 PM

Robotech FTW! Woohoo!

#3 Einherjar

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Posted 25 October 2011 - 09:07 PM

Adapting Astro Plan is probably a valid option after Love Live Alive now.

#4 azrael

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Posted 25 October 2011 - 09:26 PM

Here's some food for discussion.

With all of these convention questions I hear, I'm surprised no one has brought up the word "reboot" in the panel discussions. I keep hearing stuff about upcoming merchandise, "I want more Macross...", status of Shadow <insert title here>?", status of LAM, "Me wants more Macross...", self and fan-praising the franchise runners and more. But I don't hear anything about "reboot". Is there some sort of taboo with the mentioning of the word? I've said in the past that the fanbase is running on nostalgia but really, does nostalgia truly run that deep that it couldn't be mentioned in these panel discussions? Is nostalgia keeping the thought of bringing in a new generation of fans? Gundam and Macross reboots their franchises every so often (Gundam more than...well, anything). Hell, Gundam rebooted/retold the original with the Gundam: The Origin manga and upcoming anime. Macross did the same with Macross: The First. HG is obviously capable of making new works (i.e. RT: Love Live Alive). So to me, nothing is stopping HG from making a new title, or a reboot. But this doesn't seem to be mentioned at any time or very often. When something "new" is mentioned, it's a toy. New animation? Nothing but butchering cramming in Love Live Alive or Shadow <insert name here> into the RT folds. Never any mention of a reboot. Are RT fans that nostalgic that they think they'll lose Rick Hunter if they reboot? We've brought up the topic of rebooting Macross on this forum but I haven't heard too much about this from RT sites. This is something I'm curious about. Of all the yapping I read about the RT sites, Godzilla vs. SDF-1 seems to get more press than "reboot".

Thoughts?

#5 Keith

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Posted 25 October 2011 - 09:42 PM

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, dip their toes in by breaking each series into 3 movies, revert the Legioss design back a bit and replace all Macross mecha with it, replace all SC mecha with an alt version of Ride Armor, give the Zentradi a new name (or simply call them aliens, lol), use a non-transformable battleship instead of the Macross (since they don't seem interested in using transformable ships at this point anyway), and gasp, change the one name they didn't change, i.e. Minmay. Pull in a few of the older actors to come back if they can, cast replacements for others who don't want to (you need a new minmay guys btw), and go at it. This is an opportunity that a "truly" creative person would jump at, all the while having the safety net of a pre-existing story skeleton. Better yet, they will barely have to change anything when they get to the Mospeada portion, lucky them.

They can re-use their newly "remastered" music, they can use their same sh!tty new SFX that they jsut did, and kill that god-awful narration once and for all. Hell, they can even use the same crap songs, but re-record them with someone who can actually sing. Do this, and I will buy it for pure curiosity value.

#6 Einherjar

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Posted 25 October 2011 - 10:10 PM

Sounds like a job for Hollywood, and only Hollywood.

#7 Beltane70

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Posted 25 October 2011 - 10:19 PM

I would have loved to see the reaction to my post beyond my banning. Are they like, "OMG! Someone's speaking the truth, hurry up and ban him before someone catches on!"?

#8 areaseven

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Posted 25 October 2011 - 11:05 PM

Adapting Astro Plan is probably a valid option after Love Live Alive now.


It's a much better option than using Love Live Alive. Long before my most recent ban on RT.com, I convinced people there that Astro Plan 9 from Outer Space fits perfectly as it has the same animation level as Shadow Chronicles while maintaining the same kids' appeal of the original Robotech. Hell, the character designs look more appealing than Tommy Yune's artwork.

Posted Image

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#9 taksraven

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Posted 25 October 2011 - 11:59 PM

Here's some food for discussion.

With all of these convention questions I hear, I'm surprised no one has brought up the word "reboot" in the panel discussions. I keep hearing stuff about upcoming merchandise, "I want more Macross...", status of Shadow <insert title here>?", status of LAM, "Me wants more Macross...", self and fan-praising the franchise runners and more. But I don't hear anything about "reboot". Is there some sort of taboo with the mentioning of the word? I've said in the past that the fanbase is running on nostalgia but really, does nostalgia truly run that deep that it couldn't be mentioned in these panel discussions? Is nostalgia keeping the thought of bringing in a new generation of fans? Gundam and Macross reboots their franchises every so often (Gundam more than...well, anything). Hell, Gundam rebooted/retold the original with the Gundam: The Origin manga and upcoming anime. Macross did the same with Macross: The First. HG is obviously capable of making new works (i.e. RT: Love Live Alive). So to me, nothing is stopping HG from making a new title, or a reboot. But this doesn't seem to be mentioned at any time or very often. When something "new" is mentioned, it's a toy. New animation? Nothing but butchering cramming in Love Live Alive or Shadow <insert name here> into the RT folds. Never any mention of a reboot. Are RT fans that nostalgic that they think they'll lose Rick Hunter if they reboot? We've brought up the topic of rebooting Macross on this forum but I haven't heard too much about this from RT sites. This is something I'm curious about. Of all the yapping I read about the RT sites, Godzilla vs. SDF-1 seems to get more press than "reboot".

Thoughts?



Probably the mentality that the "original story hasn't been finished or brought to an acceptable conclusion" is the sort of thing that would stop a lot of fanboys from wanting a reboot. Shadow Chronicles promised a lot but that has led nowhere.

HG, in their infinite wisdom, is probably worried about further dividing a fanbase that is already divided and dwindling.

#10 Keith

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Posted 26 October 2011 - 12:12 AM



Probably the mentality that the "original story hasn't been finished or brought to an acceptable conclusion" is the sort of thing that would stop a lot of fanboys from wanting a reboot. Shadow Chronicles promised a lot but that has led nowhere.

HG, in their infinite wisdom, is probably worried about further dividing a fanbase that is already divided and dwindling.


That's the point, their fanbase is dropping like fly's. They literally have nohting to lose by rebooting.

#11 JB0

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Posted 26 October 2011 - 12:19 AM

Harmony Gold's trademark request for "Macross" in Japan and Asia - Denied
Issued: 1-24-2004
http://shohyo.shinke...?number=1088731
http://shohyo.shinke...?number=1088733

Wait, what? How did I miss this one?
That takes some serious testicular fortitude right there.



It's a much better option than using Love Live Alive. Long before my most recent ban on RT.com, I convinced people there that Astro Plan 9 from Outer Space fits perfectly as it has the same animation level as Shadow Chronicles while maintaining the same kids' appeal of the original Robotech. Hell, the character designs look more appealing than Tommy Yune's artwork.

You make it look awesome, and I want to see it happen now.
...
I feel so dirty. :(

#12 Keith

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Posted 26 October 2011 - 12:28 AM

You make it look awesome, and I want to see it happen now.
...
I feel so dirty. :(


Just think abou tit, we'd get domestic "Sniper Bazooka" T-shirts!!

#13 Sir Galahad«

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Posted 26 October 2011 - 02:40 AM

Wow! They are sure very busy in the making of more movies, look they were even trying to sue people for using robotech images in firefox personas...

https://wiki.mozilla...otices/Robotech

Edited by Sir Galahad«, 26 October 2011 - 02:41 AM.


#14 JB0

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Posted 26 October 2011 - 03:09 AM

They're firing off angry letters over browser themes now? Sheesh, I better delete those Macross wallpapers off my hard drive before they send me an angry letter too!

#15 Legioss

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Posted 26 October 2011 - 03:18 AM

I bought the box for $60.99. It feels like I wasted my money, and I did. I flushed $60.99 to satisfy my curiousity, I have no time to sit through remastered Robotech on Youtube or DVD, but I figure there won't be any downloads of the extras and I wanted to see what they came up with this time. Unfortunately, it's not much. I think I know what you want to know about it and I'll answer those questions.

Carl Macek's Robotech Universe is exactly like the Birth of a Sequel featurette with no new information. They don't tell you anything new about how Robotech was made or even go into detail. All it is, is voice actors praising Robotech and Carl. There is nothing interesting in it for Robotech fans. Okay, there is the news of Love Live Alive, but you don't need the box to know that. The videos they show at the conventions with Sera and/or the fighter pilot is not on there. It shows some of Love Live Alive and then a second of Dana's face as drawn by Tommy Yune.

The music videos are made by some fan in China. They're not that bad, but the videos have very bad image and sound quality. They look like low resolution video or VHS.

The original broadcast versions of the episodes are to me the most nostalgic thing about the A&E set even with their VHS quality. Why would you want a Robotech without that iconic glittering logo and the scanlines revealing green titles? Doesn't it remind you of when you first watched the show? No? Oh. Never mind then. Anyway, the changes are boring, such as Minmei singing (a different song?) at Max and Miriya's wedding.

I didn't watch Sentinels and The Movie in their entirety and just skipped around to save myself the pain. Let me know if I missed anything great. Sentinels doesn't look brighter or cleaned up. The new opening and closing is worse. The opening is Remastered-ized with the stretching Star Trek movie titles. Just like Robotech Masters and "The Masters Saga", it's been pointlessly retitled "Robotech: The Sentinels" instead of "Robotech II: The Sentinels" as if it weren't too late to change the title.

There's no major additions to scenes in Sentinels as far as I can tell. There's a few seconds of new footage here and there, but nothing interesting. It's obvious and unnatural where they cut out the Macross footage. You can tell something was cut out.

The cut version of Robotech The Movie also still looks like a VHS tape. The most interesting thing in the whole box is in end credits of the movie where The Future Is Now plays longer than the soundtrack version. Maybe it's just me because I like the soundtrack, and the original shows, far more than the Robotech series itself nowadays.

Edited by Legioss, 26 October 2011 - 03:31 AM.


#16 areaseven

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Posted 26 October 2011 - 05:05 AM

Thanks for taking the bullet for us, Legioss. Damn, that boxed set is more of a ripoff than I expected.

#17 Funkenstein

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Posted 26 October 2011 - 07:05 AM

Why do Robot-tech fans insist that Robot-Tech brought the anime boom to the West when they don't even like anime? It sounds like they're trying to convince other people that Robot-Tech have some significance even when they hate every anime show after Robot-tech.

#18 azrael

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Posted 26 October 2011 - 09:08 AM

Probably the mentality that the "original story hasn't been finished or brought to an acceptable conclusion" is the sort of thing that would stop a lot of fanboys from wanting a reboot. Shadow Chronicles promised a lot but that has led nowhere.

HG, in their infinite wisdom, is probably worried about further dividing a fanbase that is already divided and dwindling.

So what is an "acceptable conclusion" to these people then? We have to kill them off? Isn't Scott Bernard flying off into space a acceptable conclusion? Heck, Alto flying down at both Sheryl and Ranka without much resolution there seems perfectly fine to me (harem ending baby!).

You have other infamous 1980s properties being rebooted. Why not RT? Is nostalgia running that deep to prevent that question? When the idea of bringing in new fans without the baggage of the original series comes up, I see nothing. And my curiosity wants to be satisfied.

That's the point, their fanbase is dropping like fly's. They literally have nohting to lose by rebooting.

Which brings back the question... Who is their target audience now? The US probably isn't bringing much new life. Heck the current US base is probably in the 30-40 year-old range. Is it the Spanish-speaking countries? China?

Wait, what? How did I miss this one?
That takes some serious testicular fortitude right there.

The funny thing is, IIRC, Tatsunoko was listed as one of the parties that the trademark would have infringed upon in that application rejection. It's like someone birdshot the trademark applications and filed it in Japan or Asia when that's probably the one area to avoid. Real smart work there....

They're firing off angry letters over browser themes now? Sheesh, I better delete those Macross wallpapers off my hard drive before they send me an angry letter too!

Talk about great legal representation...So customizing browser skins and passing it along for free is illegal? Better call Stephanie Meyer's or J.K. Rowlings' legal team...

#19 Einherjar

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Posted 26 October 2011 - 08:19 PM

It's a much better option than using Love Live Alive. Long before my most recent ban on RT.com, I convinced people there that Astro Plan 9 from Outer Space fits perfectly as it has the same animation level as Shadow Chronicles while maintaining the same kids' appeal of the original Robotech. Hell, the character designs look more appealing than Tommy Yune's artwork.


I know jokes about that and Love Live Alive were out there, but I don't know if it's still funny now that HG is actually taking the route very seriously.

Which brings back the question... Who is their target audience now? The US probably isn't bringing much new life. Heck the current US base is probably in the 30-40 year-old range. Is it the Spanish-speaking countries? China?


Judging from the Robotech World show, it might be the very forgiving and indifferent animation crowd.

To be serious for a moment, is it still funny?

Edited by Einherjar, 26 October 2011 - 08:36 PM.


#20 Shaorin

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Posted 26 October 2011 - 09:01 PM

We got a new Thread, for the Bitching.

now the time to Scramble - RO-BUH-TECK - Again...

http://i291.photobuc...oss-engrish.png

#21 TehPW

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Posted 26 October 2011 - 09:12 PM

They're firing off angry letters over browser themes now? Sheesh, I better delete those Macross wallpapers off my hard drive before they send me an angry letter too!


PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, LET them even try to do that to me, with all the Macross pics i've clip-arted over the years (something like 1.5Gb on the main storage) from here and elsewhere on the net. It would be the excuse for me to go visit friends in Oxnard and SF after going to their office and publicly telling them to go &^%$ a moose.

#22 Darkwater

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Posted 26 October 2011 - 09:42 PM

Okay guys, here's a little secret:

Harmony Gold isn't what you'd call a "real" production company by any Hollywood standards. I say this as a true Hollywood professional of over 12 years. And I don't say that to brag, but rather drive home the point that HG is literally nothing in Hollywood.

In the 1980's, Frank Agrama was an entrepreneurial businessman who saw the value of buying international rights to American TV Shows and movies and then sell them overseas. And he also imported, like Anime, which many other companies had started doing. He wanted Macross, it was too short for the American syndication market, thus Robotech is born.

But over the years, with the syndication market dying down, no one in Hollywood gave a crap or knew who Harmony Gold was. Frank Agrama continued to make his money from international sales, later in real estate, and a private theater he owned that was rented out for special events. And there's some shady dealing with Italian Prime Minister Berlusconi that have been investigated, but I'll let you do your research on that.

But he always owned Robotech. It made money through some licensing deals like Comics in the early 90's, got a boost in the Chinese market around that time, and it continued collecting checks.

When it came time for them to try and make Robotech big again, it was headed by a number of people who hadn't worked in entertainment in years, or never really at all, but more importantly, it not really willing to learn.

When running my Shadow Chronicles blog, the one thing I was told by multiple professionals who dealt with HG was the sheer amount of ignorance that came from them. Well intentioned as they may be, they just really had no idea what they were doing, or how to go about things. This point was only driven home to me with the amount of question I personally was being asked by the HG staff on how to handle certain things.

And honestly, that's why I love reading and ranting about HG's lack of professionalism on obscure message boards, because most of it is right.

#23 EXO

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Posted 26 October 2011 - 09:59 PM

So which part was the secret?

:lol:

#24 taksraven

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Posted 26 October 2011 - 10:55 PM

Wow! They are sure very busy in the making of more movies, look they were even trying to sue people for using robotech images in firefox personas...

https://wiki.mozilla...otices/Robotech


Pure......comedy.........GOLD!!!!!!!!

So just our of curiosity. If this infringement notice was ignored, what would be the next step for HG?

So what is an "acceptable conclusion" to these people then? We have to kill them off? Isn't Scott Bernard flying off into space a acceptable conclusion? Heck, Alto flying down at both Sheryl and Ranka without much resolution there seems perfectly fine to me (harem ending baby!).

You have other infamous 1980s properties being rebooted. Why not RT? Is nostalgia running that deep to prevent that question? When the idea of bringing in new fans without the baggage of the original series comes up, I see nothing. And my curiosity wants to be satisfied.



I think it could be argued that Robotech 3000 was an attempt at a reboot, and that *really* went places.....

Edited by taksraven, 26 October 2011 - 10:54 PM.


#25 Renato

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Posted 27 October 2011 - 12:21 AM

So which part was the secret?

:lol:


Exactly. I really want to hear more about Agrama and Berlusconi, everything else is common knowledge. :)

When running my Shadow Chronicles blog, the one thing I was told by multiple professionals who dealt with HG was the sheer amount of ignorance that came from them. Well intentioned as they may be, they just really had no idea what they were doing, or how to go about things. This point was only driven home to me with the amount of question I personally was being asked by the HG staff on how to handle certain things.


Well, you know, the fact that they actually MADE Shadow Chronicles, as awful as it was, gives me a bit of hope in that case. Because if these amateurs can put out a 90 minute animation, then so can I, with a little help from my friends, as Ringo would put it. And that makes me happy. So thank you, Robotech! You have given me the will to carry on! Thank you for blessing me with the realization that no matter how incompetent, ignorant, and downright offensive you may be, you can get things done!

#26 Keith

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Posted 27 October 2011 - 12:32 AM

Well, you know, the fact that they actually MADE Shadow Chronicles, as awful as it was, gives me a bit of hope in that case. Because if these amateurs can put out a 90 minute animation, then so can I, with a little help from my friends, as Ringo would put it. And that makes me happy. So thank you, Robotech! You have given me the will to carry on! Thank you for blessing me with the realization that no matter how incompetent, ignorant, and downright offensive you may be, you can get things done!


Except Makoto Shinkai already proved that you can produce "good" movies by yourself in less of the timespan it takes to make a robotech movie with pre-existing animation from the 80's.

-She And Her Cat
-Voices From A Distant Star
-Place Promised In Our Early Days
-5cm Per Second
-Whatever his current one is called.

Sure the staff and budgets have gotten bigger, but the fact is that he still churned out more animation himself than anyone at HG has. I forget who first pointed out that robotech was HG's tax shelter, but really, nothing else makes sense.

#27 taksraven

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Posted 27 October 2011 - 12:52 AM

Except Makoto Shinkai already proved that you can produce "good" movies by yourself in less of the timespan it takes to make a robotech movie with pre-existing animation from the 80's.

-She And Her Cat
-Voices From A Distant Star
-Place Promised In Our Early Days
-5cm Per Second
-Whatever his current one is called.

Sure the staff and budgets have gotten bigger, but the fact is that he still churned out more animation himself than anyone at HG has. I forget who first pointed out that robotech was HG's tax shelter, but really, nothing else makes sense.


"Tax shelter" sounds like something I would say, but I'm not taking credit for it. I think that the investment in RT:LAM might be some sort of tax dodge for Mr McGuire as well.

#28 Einherjar

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Posted 27 October 2011 - 01:32 AM

Well, you know, the fact that they actually MADE Shadow Chronicles, as awful as it was, gives me a bit of hope in that case. Because if these amateurs can put out a 90 minute animation, then so can I, with a little help from my friends, as Ringo would put it. And that makes me happy. So thank you, Robotech! You have given me the will to carry on! Thank you for blessing me with the realization that no matter how incompetent, ignorant, and downright offensive you may be, you can get things done!


When you say "MADE," you mean pay DR Movie, on a strict budget, to animate it since Harmony Gold isn't a real animation studio, right?

#29 Dynaman

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Posted 27 October 2011 - 02:29 AM

So customizing browser skins and passing it along for free is illegal? Better call Stephanie Meyer's or J.K. Rowlings' legal team...


Free means doodly to the law, charging for it would get you in more trouble (since you made money), but if whatever you are doing is infringement then doing it for free does not change the fact. (Note, I am only commenting on the free bit, not if the act in question was infringement or not)

#30 Renato

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Posted 27 October 2011 - 04:01 AM

When you say "MADE," you mean pay DR Movie, on a strict budget, to animate it since Harmony Gold isn't a real animation studio, right?


Well, yeah. But Tommy "directed" it... whatever that is supposed to mean.

#31 sketchley

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Posted 27 October 2011 - 04:52 AM

Talk about great legal representation...So customizing browser skins and passing it along for free is illegal? Better call Stephanie Meyer's or J.K. Rowlings' legal team...


Legality of the use of the content aside, it IS shooting themselves in the foot, because ultimately these things serve as free publicity (way to go on that logic: no publicity is good publicity).

Also... are they selling it? If it genuinely is infringing on sales, I can see a justification. But are they?

#32 Zor Primus

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Posted 27 October 2011 - 06:44 AM

Wow! They are sure very busy in the making of more movies, look they were even trying to sue people for using robotech images in firefox personas...

https://wiki.mozilla...otices/Robotech


Wow...wonder what was so bad about the page...funny how a company that's lifeblood depends on a facsimile of original works goes after people who use images that weren't even created by them to begin with.

#33 azrael

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Posted 27 October 2011 - 07:56 AM

I think it could be argued that Robotech 3000 was an attempt at a reboot, and that *really* went places.....

Yeah...Wasn't Shadow Chronicles suppose to "reboot" as well? They made money off of it but why they didn't capitalize on that. If you're gonna reboot, why not just start from the beginning instead of these "soft" reboots.

Also... are they selling it? If it genuinely is infringing on sales, I can see a justification. But are they?

No. They're not selling the persona/theme. It's a free download made by a fan (from a Spanish-speaking country) that was posted on Mozilla's website.
http://www.getperson.../persona/437955

Like many things on Mozilla's website, they're free.

Does it infringe on the trademark? Yeah. Was there any monetary harm? No. As JB0 said, might as well delete all that Macross wallpaper we have.

#34 Einherjar

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Posted 27 October 2011 - 08:04 AM

Ha! Policing the Internet...

I would think sites like youtube would have a bigger priority, especially with the A&E sets out. All the animation they legally own have been posted freely by individuals, yet the only things they go after these days is Robotech Love Live Alive convention footage.

So stuff like The Sentinels, Shadow Chronicles, and Untold Story posted by people not Manga Entertainment in its entirety and not mirrored = don't care

Test footage from a phone camera about a future production 30 seconds long = Hammertime

Edit: Shadow Chronicles was taken out recently.

Edited by Einherjar, 27 October 2011 - 08:27 AM.


#35 Keith

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Posted 27 October 2011 - 11:29 AM

The whole series is actually streaming free on youtube & hulu, all they'd be able to go after are amv's & such.





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