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Robotech and HG license debates


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#71 SuperOstrich

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Posted 29 August 2003 - 08:29 AM

It is widely accepted by most companies that fan projects can be sold in small quantities with no legal action taken. Look at WonderFest in Japan, and most garage kits that are available abroad. He should be able to finish it and sell it by himself without fear of being sued by HG.

But to do this, he would have to make each one himself. Quite a lot of work. If he he was looking into a company making them, then it would fall outside the fan custom region and into a company product.

His original plan was to tool and manufacture about 50 of them by himself, I believe.

#72 dna

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Posted 29 August 2003 - 08:32 AM

sell it as the leader 1 from go-bots, thats takara i thinks

I believe Hasbro has that now...

#73 ewilen

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Posted 29 August 2003 - 12:06 PM

A little earlier in this topic there was a discussion as to why HG didn't go after Manga Video for releasing Macross Plus in the US. (In fact, there's also a UK edition and maybe others.) Does the "we were distracted" excuse also apply to Manga's release of Macross II and Viz's publication of the manga? And what about the Macross II RPG Sourcebook published by Palladium? Wasn't that an addition to the Robotech RPG? There must be a story there; I don't see how Palladium could have been able to please both Big West and Harmony Gold at the same time.

Apologies if these questions are newby-ish and TIA for answers or links to answers.

#74 Effect

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Posted 29 August 2003 - 12:14 PM

That is an interesting question. Does anyone know if HG or even BW was printed anywhere on the Macross II RPG or if it was just Palladium that decided to make it an addition of the Robotech RPG?

#75 Apollo Leader

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Posted 29 August 2003 - 12:30 PM

The "bankofkev" on the previous page is an imposter. Before that post appeared, I have already swapped a few PM's with the real BankofKev (notice that some of the letters are now capped). Kev has not made a single posting to Macross World as of this time.

Edited by Apollo Leader, 29 August 2003 - 12:31 PM.


#76 JELEINEN

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Posted 29 August 2003 - 03:53 PM

It is widely accepted by most companies that fan projects can be sold in small quantities with no legal action taken. Look at WonderFest in Japan, and most garage kits that are available abroad. He should be able to finish it and sell it by himself without fear of being sued by HG.

But Japanese law is not the same as American law when it comes to IP. My understanding is that Japan doesn't have the intense defend or lose it system that's used in the US.

#77 azrael

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Posted 29 August 2003 - 04:05 PM

OK, ive looked, I cant find the reason John M.'s Legioss project was cancelled, I hope it wasnt lisencing issues :blink:

Actually, John said it in a post on the old board. Even though he did get a C&D letter, lack of potential buyers took down the project. Many people said they would get one of his models but when it came time to put down the money, people backed off.

#78 Isamu Atreides 86

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Posted 29 August 2003 - 04:13 PM

weren't they gonna be like $500?

#79 Pat Payne

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Posted 29 August 2003 - 04:22 PM

It is widely accepted by most companies that fan projects can be sold in small quantities with no legal action taken. Look at WonderFest in Japan, and most garage kits that are available abroad. He should be able to finish it and sell it by himself without fear of being sued by HG.

But Japanese law is not the same as American law when it comes to IP. My understanding is that Japan doesn't have the intense defend or lose it system that's used in the US.

That's just it. IIRC, Japan has a much broader definition of fair use, that says small violations are not enough to prove abandonment of copyright. The creators have the right to sue and get then unlicensed vendors shut down (and they'd win), but most don't go to the trouble because it doesn't affect their copyright. Here, it is much stricter, and if it's not defended vigorously, it does become abandonment in the eyes of the law. That's why Wonderfest can sell garage kit Valk models with no complaints from Big West (so long as they don't bootleg an already existing product -- but that's a different story), but if a day-care center here in the States tries to put up one picture of Mickey Mouse, Mikey Eisner sends his crack ninja lawyer stormtroopers.

#80 dna

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Posted 29 August 2003 - 04:26 PM

That is an interesting question. Does anyone know if HG or even BW was printed anywhere on the Macross II RPG or if it was just Palladium that decided to make it an addition of the Robotech RPG?

**1st printing July 1993**opposite title page.
All Macross II characters and mecha are copyrighted 1992 and 1993 and trademarked by Hero Communications/Big West/Macross II
Project. Exclusively licensed throughout The United States and Canada by L.A. Hero/U.S. Renditions.

All rights reserved under the Universal Copyright Convention. No part of this book may be reproduced in part or whole, in any form or by any means, without permission from the publisher, except for breif quotes for use in reviews. All incidents, situations, institutions,
governments and people are fictional and any similarity, without satiric intent, of characters or persons living or dead, is strictly coincidental.

Macross II is a trademark owned and licensed by Hero Communications/Big West/Macross II project.

Palladium Books, Rifts, and Megaverse are all registered trademarks owned & licensed by Kevin Seimbieda.

Robotech is a trademark owned and licensed by Harmony Gold USA, Inc.

**back cover**
features US Rendidtions logo:
US Rendidtions
A subsidary of
Nippon Shuppan Hanbai USA inc
English Subtitled Videos

#81 Captain of the SDF-1 Macross

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Posted 29 August 2003 - 04:27 PM

A little earlier in this topic there was a discussion as to why HG didn't go after Manga Video for releasing Macross Plus in the US. (In fact, there's also a UK edition and maybe others.) Does the "we were distracted" excuse also apply to Manga's release of Macross II and Viz's publication of the manga?

Simply put, Manga Video just got the rights to Macross Plus directly from Big West and HG can't do anything about it. The "excuse" made by HG is a red herring, saying that Saban hired off HG's staff off. In fact, Saban was already well established back in 1985, with "Macron 1" (a spliced anime of GoShogun and Strungle) and they already have some staffers/voice actors work on Saban time to time since that point.

And what about the Macross II RPG Sourcebook published by Palladium? Wasn't that an addition to the Robotech RPG? There must be a story there; I don't see how Palladium could have been able to please both Big West and Harmony Gold at the same time.


I can answer to that because I own the Macross II RPG books, in which they are the first official Macross-related RPG product. B)

All of the books have Big West and US Renditions on the copyright notice and US Renditions logo on the back on some of the sourcebooks. The Siembiedas stated that they got their license through US Rendtions and Big West, though they didn't update to have Manga's name back in 1994-1995 when they were still in print. Also, Harmony Gold didn't do anything to stop it nor crosspromote it with the Robotech RPG.

Hell, Kevin Siembieda stated (Macross II RPG book, pages 5-6) on the introduction that Macross II should be treated as a Macross-only work and not to be confused with Robotech. He even delve into the history and license rights on who owns Macross-related animation. Also, he said he pursued the license because he was a mecha anime fan, hence he got the RPG licenses to Robotech and Macross II.

Aside from using all of the Macross II source material for the RPG and can't expand it, Palladium Books can't get the licenses to Macross-only stuff because Big West is asking too much on the license fee and PB can't pursue this at this time.

#82 pfunk

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Posted 30 August 2003 - 04:34 AM

weren't they gonna be like $500?

For $500, I think they wouldve sold. I know some people cant put thier money whare thier mouth is. He wouldve made $25,000 if he sold 50 of them, not a bad income for what i consider a hobby. Off topic, but my buddy works for a hobby rocketry place and some of the rockets cost upwards of $30,000 and they dont guaranty recovery or explosion. They cost on average $2,000-$3,000 for each launch for the big ones,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,now thats an expensive hobby :blink:

#83 Apollo Leader

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Posted 30 August 2003 - 03:46 PM

weren't they gonna be like $500?

For $500, I think they wouldve sold. I know some people cant put thier money whare thier mouth is. He wouldve made $25,000 if he sold 50 of them, not a bad income for what i consider a hobby. Off topic, but my buddy works for a hobby rocketry place and some of the rockets cost upwards of $30,000 and they dont guaranty recovery or explosion. They cost on average $2,000-$3,000 for each launch for the big ones,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,now thats an expensive hobby :blink:

I'm into high power model rocketry big time. The hobby isn't THAT expensive. B)

#84 Lightning

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Posted 30 August 2003 - 04:49 PM

thought this thread would've been to the 10th page by now...

#85 pfunk

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Posted 31 August 2003 - 03:19 AM

weren't they gonna be like $500?

For $500, I think they wouldve sold. I know some people cant put thier money whare thier mouth is. He wouldve made $25,000 if he sold 50 of them, not a bad income for what i consider a hobby. Off topic, but my buddy works for a hobby rocketry place and some of the rockets cost upwards of $30,000 and they dont guaranty recovery or explosion. They cost on average $2,000-$3,000 for each launch for the big ones,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,now thats an expensive hobby :blink:

I'm into high power model rocketry big time. The hobby isn't THAT expensive. B)

custom stuff for rich guys is ;) , ive seen $2000 worth of carbon fiber and weeks of work go into thiese things, just on the body :blink:

#86 Apollo Leader

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Posted 31 August 2003 - 11:46 AM

weren't they gonna be like $500?

For $500, I think they wouldve sold. I know some people cant put thier money whare thier mouth is. He wouldve made $25,000 if he sold 50 of them, not a bad income for what i consider a hobby. Off topic, but my buddy works for a hobby rocketry place and some of the rockets cost upwards of $30,000 and they dont guaranty recovery or explosion. They cost on average $2,000-$3,000 for each launch for the big ones,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,now thats an expensive hobby :blink:

I'm into high power model rocketry big time. The hobby isn't THAT expensive. B)

custom stuff for rich guys is ;) , ive seen $2000 worth of carbon fiber and weeks of work go into thiese things, just on the body :blink:

There are some projets, like those who are trying to reach the edge of space, who's projects may reach in the tens-of-thousands-of-dollars rangem so there are those exceptions. :) Some rocketeers flying H through M class have used Kevlar and carbon fiber (along with fiber glass) for strong, light weight construction.

The thread may now return to its topic! :D

#87 waylandcool

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Posted 31 August 2003 - 05:17 PM

This OT excursion is nothing compared to the 2 page discourse Skullone and I had about modern teenagers. We basically got bored with nothing happening so we rambled on. It was all fun and games.

#88 the white drew carey

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Posted 02 September 2003 - 07:07 AM

thought this thread would've been to the 10th page by now...

pfunk- Your math assumes that he would be making 100% profit. But considering all of the parts that would've gone into this thing, I'd be surprised if he pulled off even $100 profit from each unit.

I was out of town for five days.

:rolleyes:

As to the Legioss project, I heard differently, but I could be wrong. I had heard that HG sent a C&D letter, John, trying to keep his project alive, went into talks with Toynami for them to buy it off of him, they wanted to pay less than he was asking for so it went nowhere.

As to MacII and the RPGs? DNA and Cappie of the SDF-1 pretty much summed that up with what is possibibly the most definitive answers you can find.

#89 Bub

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Posted 03 September 2003 - 05:03 PM

I guess unless further info is release on Mac7trash, we won't know until we open up the first page and see whether "Licensed by Harmony Gold" is there or not.


Uh, I asked at SDCC if HG's name is on TokyoPop's Macross 7 Trash. They said, yes.

Yeck. <_<

Like "Macross series" (NOT robo#$%) in DVD by Animeigo with an HG logo. <_<

#90 Bub

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Posted 03 September 2003 - 05:06 PM

So, you think that BW may pull the plug on Tokyopop's release of Macross 7 Trash?

If I'm gonna see an HG logo instead BW's in Tokyopops' release of M7, then I think BW should pull the plug.

Edit: spelling. :lol:

Edited by Bub, 03 September 2003 - 05:13 PM.


#91 Bub

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Posted 03 September 2003 - 05:12 PM

A little earlier in this topic there was a discussion as to why HG didn't go after Manga Video for releasing Macross Plus in the US. (In fact, there's also a UK edition and maybe others.) Does the "we were distracted" excuse also apply to Manga's release of Macross II and Viz's publication of the manga?

Simply put, Manga Video just got the rights to Macross Plus directly from Big West and HG can't do anything about it. The "excuse" made by HG is a red herring, saying that Saban hired off HG's staff off. In fact, Saban was already well established back in 1985, with "Macron 1" (a spliced anime of GoShogun and Strungle) and they already have some staffers/voice actors work on Saban time to time since that point.

And what about the Macross II RPG Sourcebook published by Palladium? Wasn't that an addition to the Robotech RPG? There must be a story there; I don't see how Palladium could have been able to please both Big West and Harmony Gold at the same time.


I can answer to that because I own the Macross II RPG books, in which they are the first official Macross-related RPG product. B)

All of the books have Big West and US Renditions on the copyright notice and US Renditions logo on the back on some of the sourcebooks. The Siembiedas stated that they got their license through US Rendtions and Big West, though they didn't update to have Manga's name back in 1994-1995 when they were still in print. Also, Harmony Gold didn't do anything to stop it nor crosspromote it with the Robotech RPG.

Hell, Kevin Siembieda stated (Macross II RPG book, pages 5-6) on the introduction that Macross II should be treated as a Macross-only work and not to be confused with Robotech. He even delve into the history and license rights on who owns Macross-related animation. Also, he said he pursued the license because he was a mecha anime fan, hence he got the RPG licenses to Robotech and Macross II.

Aside from using all of the Macross II source material for the RPG and can't expand it, Palladium Books can't get the licenses to Macross-only stuff because Big West is asking too much on the license fee and PB can't pursue this at this time.

If this is the hole HG can't cover, I hope someone just get a lisence directly from BW. Maybe Manga can release M7 series in DVD, eh? :rolleyes:

.......So I guess Tokyopop won't have any problems getting the M7 trash.

#92 Radd

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Posted 04 September 2003 - 05:16 AM

We don't yet know HG's relation to the Tokyo Pop release of Macross 7 Trash. It seems likely that Tokyo Pop licensed it directly from Big West, then pre-emptively offered HG a cut to avoid the legal troubles.

Everything we've seen only says that HG greenlighted Tokyopop's plans to release it, they say nothing of HG licensing it to Tokyopop.

It'll be interesting to see what happens with this.

#93 Abombz!!

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Posted 04 September 2003 - 05:22 AM

We don't yet know HG's relation to the Tokyo Pop release of Macross 7 Trash. It seems likely that Tokyo Pop licensed it directly from Big West, then pre-emptively offered HG a cut to avoid the legal troubles.

Everything we've seen only says that HG greenlighted Tokyopop's plans to release it, they say nothing of HG licensing it to Tokyopop.

It'll be interesting to see what happens with this.

More interesting.... will everyone who worked on it be credited or will they just stick a big "HG" sticker on it and leave it at that? <_<

#94 muswp1

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Posted 04 September 2003 - 05:37 AM

Probably the latter, I doubt HG will do much other than take share and let it go.

#95 Pat Payne

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Posted 04 September 2003 - 07:15 AM

Sounds just a little like one of those old-style gangster movies... [Edward G. Robinson] Nyaa, see, we're gonna let you release that here in the States, see? But you just remember one thing, pally, this here's OUR territory, and you're gonna give us a piece of the action, nyaa....[/Edward G. Robinson] :)

Edited by Pat Payne, 04 September 2003 - 07:15 AM.


#96 the white drew carey

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Posted 04 September 2003 - 08:15 AM

More interesting.... will everyone who worked on it be credited or will they just stick a big "HG" sticker on it and leave it at that? <_<

That's what I'm curious about as well.

What I'm extremely worried about is, if HG has gotten their grubby little hands on M7 Trash, they might want Imaji Nariguy or Studio Yune to do the covers...

...now THAT would be a travesty.

Edited by the white drew carey, 04 September 2003 - 08:17 AM.


#97 Effect

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Posted 04 September 2003 - 08:20 AM

I don't really mind if HG was payed off so TP could release the title in peace but a HG logo shouldn't be anywhere on M7T imo. SDF Macross is one thing since they do have the rights to that but nothing has been said about the various sequels. I'd much rather the title get pulled and translated(some reason could be made) in Japan and have retailers import it over.

#98 wrylac

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Posted 04 September 2003 - 09:00 AM


More interesting.... will everyone who worked on it be credited or will they just stick a big "HG" sticker on it and leave it at that? <_<

That's what I'm curious about as well.

What I'm extremely worried about is, if HG has gotten their grubby little hands on M7 Trash, they might want Imaji Nariguy or Studio Yune to do the covers...

...now THAT would be a travesty.


Take that back.

Question: Did they release a book version of the series in Japan? If they did, I hope it's just a reprint of something like that. If not, we just might get art from Yune.

Edited by wrylac, 04 September 2003 - 09:04 AM.


#99 Abombz!!

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Posted 04 September 2003 - 09:20 AM

Did they release a book version of the series in Japan? If they did, I hope it's just a reprint of something like that. If not, we just might get art from Yune.

Yep... like every other manga over there.

Edited by Abombz!!, 04 September 2003 - 09:22 AM.


#100 wrylac

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Posted 04 September 2003 - 09:27 AM

Did they release a book version of the series in Japan? If they did, I hope it's just a reprint of something like that. If not, we just might get art from Yune.

Yep... like every other manga over there.

Yeah, I follow manga releases even less than I do anime.

Thanks.

#101 Abombz!!

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Posted 04 September 2003 - 09:43 AM

Did they release a book version of the series in Japan? If they did, I hope it's just a reprint of something like that. If not, we just might get art from Yune.

Yep... like every other manga over there.

Yeah, I follow manga releases even less than I do anime.

Thanks.

Usually... when the manga ends its run on a magazine its released in a compiled format. How popular it is affects how fast it is released.

And to be honest.... I don't really know how popular Trash was, but it has a book release, specially since its pretty short.

#102 TheLoneWolf

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Posted 04 September 2003 - 09:39 PM

We don't yet know HG's relation to the Tokyo Pop release of Macross 7 Trash. It seems likely that Tokyo Pop licensed it directly from Big West, then pre-emptively offered HG a cut to avoid the legal troubles.

When Toycom was planning on releasing the Macross Plus Valkyrie stateside, they were willing to pay both Big West and Harmony Gold in order to appease both parties. However, HG wanted the cessation of Toycom's plans and nothing less. The rest is history. If, what you're saying is true, I wonder why HG would change policies with this manga.

#103 wrylac

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Posted 04 September 2003 - 10:37 PM

We don't yet know HG's relation to the Tokyo Pop release of Macross 7 Trash. It seems likely that Tokyo Pop licensed it directly from Big West, then pre-emptively offered HG a cut to avoid the legal troubles.

When Toycom was planning on releasing the Macross Plus Valkyrie stateside, they were willing to pay both Big West and Harmony Gold in order to appease both parties. However, HG wanted the cessation of Toycom's plans and nothing less. The rest is history. If, what you're saying is true, I wonder why HG would change policies with this manga.

Humm...I've gotten the impression it was the other way around. BW didn't think HG needed to be any part of it. Toycom paying HG would have to some degree substantiated the claim HG was making, that foreign releases needed to go through them. Toycom (who did read HG’s contract) says, “no prob, we’ll pay HG too.” BW says, “over our dead body.” BW threatens to pull license from Toycom and Toycom drops license cause it ain’t gonna happen with BW pitching a fit. It doesn’t make sense to me that George has such a good relationship with HG now if they were the ones to screw him in the past.

I think the question is, why the change of heart by BW? I have an answer but I doubt it’s one you want to hear.

#104 TheLoneWolf

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Posted 04 September 2003 - 10:44 PM

Eh, what's wrylac still doing here?

#105 wrylac

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Posted 04 September 2003 - 10:48 PM

Eh, what's wrylac still doing here?

Keeping it real... B)




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