104 replies to this topic

[Briareos9]

I know this has been sort of done before, but I can’t seem to recall any indication of an actual side-by-side quantitative analysis using the Compendium data.

VF-19 vs VF-22

VF-19F (Shinsei)------------------------------VF-22S (General Galaxy)
Maneuverability is approximately equal. Differences have more to do with the pilot then the machine.

updated VF-4----------------------------------transforming Q-Rau

2-D independent thrust vectoring------------3-D independent thrust vectoring
Can use Fold Booster--------------------------Can use Fold Booster
2 fixed forward facing energy guns-----------2 semi-fixed rear and forward firing guns
1 fixed rear facing laser cannon--------------3 rear facing energy weapons
1 gun pod with clips----------------------------2 “cartridge-less” stealth gunpods
1 shield w/ PPB---------------------------------2 shields, one on either arm in concert w/ PPB
--------------------------------------------------4 Micro-missle ports both top and bottom, standard
2 internal pallets (48 MM or 12 MRHM total)-3 standard internal pallets
--------------------------------------------------Low observable stealth construction
Active Stealth system-------------------------Active stealth system since first design (YF-21)

If the Active Stealth System was so good by itself why did General Galaxy, which basically developed the technology, build a fighter with a stealth agility trade-off and low observable stealth construction?

Using YF data on max loading:
In atmosphere
~28,759 kg above mass empty-----------------29,657 kg above mass empty
In space w/ fold booster
~37,352 kg above mass empty-----------------38,755 kg above mass empty

If max loading retained with production weight (VF-19F used as lightest true combat, VF-19A is same)
In atmosphere
28,959 kg above mass empty------------------29,867 kg above mass empty
In space
37,551 kg above mass empty------------------38,965 kg above mass empty

Max Loading VF-1
normal:
23,750kg-23,150kg (VF-1X) above mass empty
Super:
52,800 kg above mass empty

Base weight
VF-19A 8,750 kg---------------------------------VF-22S 9,340 kilograms
VF-19F 8,550 kg
VF-19S 8,620 kg

General Galaxy fighter can carry approximately 1 tonne more, while weighing little under one tonne more. Due to the greater thrust the Shinsei Industry fighter most likely is much more fuel hungry.

7 different test pilots with test related casualties----1 Test pilot, died taking out X-9 Ghost
with 42,700/67,500 engines (atmosphere/space)---Same exact engines as YF prototype

Note: these replaced the original 56,500 kg
engines with which it would have had
inferior acceleration to the YF-21

Production model mounts:
VF-19A 56,500 kg engines (likely in atmosphere rating)---41,200/65,200 kg engines
VF-19F 72,500 kg engines (Space)
VF-19S 78,950 kg engines (Space)

Thrust to mass ratio (ie thrust/mass empty)
VF-19A:12.91 G--------------------------VF-22S (atmosphere): 8.82 G
VF-19F:16.96 G--------------------------VF-22S (space):13.96 G
VF-19S:18.32 G
YF-19: 15.43 G

VF-1X: 2.17 (mass empty 13,850 kg)
VF-1X (w/ EF-2001 booster thrusters ie Super Valk): 14.06 G (for 150 seconds)
VF-11: 6.33

Using empty mass of FAST pack system from VF-1 readout
VF-22S (w/ 2 EF-2001 booster thrusters): 25.22 G
VF-19F (w/ 2 EF-2001 booster thrusters): 27.70 G

Max Thrust with max loading data from YF data
VF-19F(space): 3.15G-------------------------VF-22S (atmosphere): 2.10G
YF-19 (atmosphere): 2.27G-------------------VF-22S (space): 2.70G
YF-19 (space): 2.93G

Max speed in atmosphere
VF-19A (10km) Mach 5.1+------------------VF-22S (10km) Mach 5.07
VF-19A (30km+) Mach 21+-------------------VF-22S (30km+) Mach 22+

Max rate of climb S/L
68 km/min--------------------------------------61.9km/min

G limits
VF-19F +35.5/-19.5----------------------------VF-22S +60/-45

One thing worthy of note is the deployment time. The original VF-1 Valkyrie was only in production for 9 years since it’s equivalent of Project Supernova (2007-2015). The VF-4, which replaced it as the main variable fighter in 2020, stayed in production for only around ten years (2012-2022) being replaced itself as the mainline fighter in 2030. The VF-11 was scheduled to be replaced by the winner of Project Super Nova in the 2040s. By 2046 the Seventh Neo-Macross colony fleet only has three VF-19s. Meanwhile the VF-22 accepted in 2042 and has been replacing the VF-17 in service.

The VF-19 with its greater acceleration seems to be a better interceptor. The VF-22S seems to be a better deep penetration bomb truck. The VF-22 seems to make better use of its pair of PPBs. The advantage of the VF-19 can be directly tracked back to its newer Shinsei produced engines, which without it’d not be competitive with the VF-22S. It is only a matter of time before General Galaxy can get their hands on such engines. Seems as how the YF-19 readout referred to its pallets as “Two Stonewell/Roice B-7 standard internal pallets” these are probably the same sort of thing as the three carried by the VF-22S. This should allow the VF-22S to carry the same sort of stuff while always having mini-missiles handy for dog fighting. I dare say this and the more guns pointing several which ways, makes the VF-22S a better dogfighter, as the maneuverability isn’t that different.

The VF-22S with its solid back would seem well suited to carrying backpack FAST packs, although they’d likely interfere with it’s low observability construction unless specially made. The VF-19’s VF-4 style origami transformation would seem likely to make it harder to use backpack FAST packs, although we know they do. Additionally the Project Supernova FAST pack of the YF-21 type could be worn without interfering with anything else. It increases arm shield armor and missile complement. The VF-19’s Project Supernova type FAST pack however takes up the leg points for the launchers and adds some rather pointless plates to the shoulders. They also appear to just have holes to allow the normal veniers to function instead of additional ones making it questionable whether they’d want them over a standard pack in that area.

[JB0]

VF-22 has the best battroid ever.
That is all.

...

Personally, I think YF-19 vs YF-21 is a lot more cut&dry.
I still give the nod to the VF-22, but it isn't as clearly superior as the YF-21 was.



It's worth noting the VF-22 can pull a LOT more Gs than the VF-19( or YF-21), but in practice this isn't all that useful because your pilot is still a human or zentradi, and will likely be reduced to a sticky red paste at a fraction of the theoretical max(See: Macross Plus movie).



I would be inclined to believe the VF-22 is a bit more reliable too, since it isn't using it's fighter mode thrusters as feet(a long-running flaw with VF design).

Though if there's signifigant planetary combat, you want EVERYONE in a 22, since the 19's design is incredibly difficult to fly in an atmosphere(again, see MacPlus.,YF-19 team went through 7 diffrent test pilots VS the YF-21's single pilot). A plane that only the best can keep flying is not something you want everyone flying.

[azrael]

Using animation alone doesn't really help. David would probably be the best source for comparison but that would be for fighter-mode. Also you're jumping around with the YF-VF notations. The prototypes don't quite use the same systems as the prototypes. Please don't mix them as it does get confusing.

I imagine with the forward-swept wings and carnards, the VF-19 series would be much better at manueverability than the conventional VF-22 series. Even though the VF-22 has 3-D thrust vectoring, you are really relying on that system to move you around fast (which is not as good as an inherit design IMO).

Again, I will point out that in M+, the YF-21 was flying without gunpods loaded during many tests flights. The YF-19 was flying with it's gunpod during most tests. This makes me wonder about the weight of the YF-21.

Seems as how the YF-19 readout referred to its pallets as “Two Stonewell/Roice B-7 standard internal pallets” these are probably the same sort of thing as the three carried by the VF-22S. This should allow the VF-22S to carry the same sort of stuff while always having mini-missiles handy for dog fighting.

A few other things to consider is a VF-19 uses a mission-variable missile system. where as the VF-22 uses a fixed missile system supplemented by another set of hardpoints. This reduces what you can use the fighter for. In a sense, this does make the VF-19 a more well-rounded fighter.

As much as I like the VF-22, there are times where a VF-19 looks like a much better fighter. On paper that is (which completely disregards piloting as every pilot is different and can really mess with comparisons).

[Skippy438]

Would it not be more fair to compare the VF-22S to the VF-19S and not 19F?

[JB0]

Using animation alone doesn't really help.

I imagine with the forward-swept wings and carnards, the VF-19 series would be much better at manueverability than the conventional VF-22 series. Even though the VF-22 has 3-D thrust vectoring, you are really relying on that system to move you around fast (which is not as good as an inherit design IMO).

That's only relevant in atmosphere. In space thrsut vectoring and verniers is it.

And barring any really drastic design changes, which I don't see any evidence of, the YF-19's atmospheric survivability rating of "not good" can be extrapolated out the the VF-19.

Again, I will point out that in M+, the YF-21 was flying without gunpods loaded during many tests flights. The YF-19 was flying with it's gunpod during most tests. This makes me wonder about the weight of the YF-21.

The YF-21 also has a lot less need for a gunpod due to the extra integrated weapons. The arm cannons especially seem to fill the role a gunpod would take for most purposes.

[azrael]

That's only relevant in atmosphere. In space thrsut vectoring and verniers is it.

But those fighters aren't just designed for space use.

And barring any really drastic design changes, which I don't see any evidence of,  the YF-19's atmospheric survivability rating of "not good" can be extrapolated out the the VF-19.

Well apparently it was good enough to make it to production.... So that rating must be off....

The YF-21 also has a lot less need for a gunpod due to the extra integrated weapons. The arm cannons especially seem to fill the role a gunpod would take for most purposes.

True. But, that still doesn't excuse it from being included especially if it is suppose to be a standard issue and yet not show up throughout most of the testing.

[JB0]

That's only relevant in atmosphere. In space thrsut vectoring and verniers is it.

But those fighters aren't just designed for space use.

True. But it seems to be their primary use.

And barring any really drastic design changes, which I don't see any evidence of,  the YF-19's atmospheric survivability rating of "not good" can be extrapolated out the the VF-19.

Well apparently it was good enough to make it to production.... So that rating must be off....

I've always assumed that had more to do with the Sharon Apple incident than anything else.

Isamu was the one that initiated the counterattack(albeit unwittingly), and the one that defeated Sharon. Hence, "his" plane gets nominated for mass production as a reward.

The YF-21 also has a lot less need for a gunpod due to the extra integrated weapons. The arm cannons especially seem to fill the role a gunpod would take for most purposes.

True. But, that still doesn't excuse it from being included especially if it is suppose to be a standard issue and yet not show up throughout most of the testing.

True.

[Briareos9]

Would it not be more fair to compare the VF-22S to the VF-19S and not 19F?

I'm limited to using data I can actually get.
VF-19 Compendium entry
The Custom doesn't count and the data's just the way it is.

A few other things to consider is a VF-19 uses a mission-variable missile system. where as the VF-22 uses a fixed missile system supplemented by another set of hardpoints. This reduces what you can use the fighter for. In a sense, this does make the VF-19 a more well-rounded fighter.

"Two Stonewell/Roice B-7 standard internal pallets"
From VF-22S entry:
"Three standard internal pallets. Micro-missile launchers with four exit ports on the forward dorsal section to the sides of the engine nacelles. Micro-missile launchers with four exit ports on the ventral fuselage to the rear of the engine nacelles in Fighter mode or on leg storage bay cover panels in GERWALK and Battroid modes. Exclusive internal pallet(s)."

The VF-22 is a bigger, heavier bird that can carry more based off its given stats. The part you quoted is where I pointed out the YF-19's are listed as that the VF-19's are listed as Little Rock launch systems and described as pallets. If they're using standardized pallets and the VF-19 is carrying two, while the VF-22 is carrying three plus a micro-missile system with its own exclusive pallets whose the more well rounded? From what I can decrypt all the VF-19 has over the VF-22S stat wise is its more powerful engines and lower mass. Maneuverability can't really be taken from them and what I do know would indicate it's close enough pilot skill is the deciding factor instead of the machine under them. The VF-22S is a tonne heavier and is bigger so I don't see why it can't actually be carrying more. The YF-21 didn't have those pallets true, but that was before the leg redesign. The VF-19 doesn't appear to have anything so drastic done to it going from YF to VF. I'm only using the YF data for the data I can't get from the other entry.

Weapons procurement involves a lot of politics. The M-14 was adopted because of politics not it was better then the FAL for general use. It's not beyond them to actually have everything predetermined and rig it. General Galaxy has never had one of their fighters become the mainline, while Shinsei has. Even the BCS was more of a proof of concept item, the YF-21 Prototype #1 should have still been on Eden with its conventional control system after the Sharon Apple incident. The YF-19 went through 7 test pilots, a engine change, and was still kept on. I wouldn't rule out things like that they might have been biased against a VF that didn't look like a VF either. The VF-19 is not necessarily better for GP just because it got the contract.

[wolfx]

I still think the VF-11 - VF-19 are inferior to the VF-4. They have beam cannons for chrissakes!! WHy are they gone?

[hellohikaru]

VF-19A is the primary atmospheric variant which is alot more agile than the VF-19F/S variants. I don't see how it could be difficult to fly unless those test pilots are really incompetent like those of the M7 fleet.

FSW+Canard actually provides excellent manuevebility and very high angle of attack while reducing stalling. This is of course assuming it is anything like its nearest real life counterpart the X-29.

http://www.globalsec...rcraft/x-29.htm

Even if the YF-19 is really a bit hard to handle you can bet the production version will feature a g-limiter like the F-16 which can be overwrite if neccesary.

As for the YF-21 bcs i think it would have done better without an unstable prozac taking Bowman using it. Maybe a full human pilot is stable enough to use it without losing control. I don't think opting for conventional controls only is an advantage except saving cost.

VF-22's nearest real life equivalent the YF-23 Black Widow actually doesn't use TVC yet it is still quite manuverable and it is probably more stealthy than had it used it.

[JB0]

VF-19A is the primary atmospheric variant which is alot more agile than the VF-19F/S variants. I don't see how it could be difficult to fly unless those test pilots are really incompetent like those of the M7 fleet.

FSW+Canard actually provides excellent manuevebility and very high angle of attack while reducing stalling. This is of course assuming it is anything like its nearest real life counterpart the X-29.

http://www.globalsec...rcraft/x-29.htm

Even if the YF-19 is really a bit hard to handle you can bet the production version will feature a g-limiter like the F-16 which can be overwrite if neccesary.

More likely is something similar to the F-117. The computer watches what you're doing with the controls, and does what you're trying to do in a way that doesn't crash the plane.

As for the YF-21 bcs i think it would have done better without an unstable prozac taking Bowman using it.

YES!

Maybe a full human pilot is stable enough to use it without losing control.

Or even just a hybrid without deep-seated psychological issues.

I don't think opting for conventional controls only is an advantage except saving cost.

I've always felt this way.
The BCS was just too promising to abandon like they did.

Obviously, the anime production view says that planes with pilots yanking controls are better than planes with pilots just sitting there with their eyes closed.

[azrael]

A few other things to consider is a VF-19 uses a mission-variable missile system. where as the VF-22 uses a fixed missile system supplemented by another set of hardpoints. This reduces what you can use the fighter for. In a sense, this does make the VF-19 a more well-rounded fighter.

"Two Stonewell/Roice B-7 standard internal pallets"
From VF-22S entry:
"Three standard internal pallets. Micro-missile launchers with four exit ports on the forward dorsal section to the sides of the engine nacelles. Micro-missile launchers with four exit ports on the ventral fuselage to the rear of the engine nacelles in Fighter mode or on leg storage bay cover panels in GERWALK and Battroid modes. Exclusive internal pallet(s)."

The VF-22 is a bigger, heavier bird that can carry more based off its given stats. The part you quoted is where I pointed out the YF-19's are listed as that the VF-19's are listed as Little Rock launch systems and described as pallets. If they're using standardized pallets and the VF-19 is carrying two, while the VF-22 is carrying three plus a micro-missile system with its own exclusive pallets whose the more well rounded? From what I can decrypt all the VF-19 has over the VF-22S stat wise is its more powerful engines and lower mass. Maneuverability can't really be taken from them and what I do know would indicate it's close enough pilot skill is the deciding factor instead of the machine under them.

The quoted internal pallets for the 19 are listed for the YF-19. Not the VF-19. So you're comparing a prototype to a production version? I thought this was comparing the VF-19 to the VF-22.

The 3 internal pallets for the VF-22 might refer to the internal bays for the 2 gunpods and the one bomb-bay. The "Exclusive internal pallet(s)" might refer to the storage of the micro-missiles. Either that or those pallets are quite small.....

The VF-22S is a tonne heavier and is bigger so I don't see why it can't actually be carrying more. 

It's 1000 kg heavier because the legs are seperate from the engines. The legs on a VF-19 are the engines. It needs room to store the legs in there, hence it's bigger.

[Briareos9]

Wait... Let’s take two steps back here. From what I remember of David’s previous analysis the VF-19A/YF-19 was better in either yaw or pitch and the VF-22’s wings are better at rolling, but there was no clear advantage either way.

Note something though azrael: only the VF-19A, which is specifically designed for atmospheric use, has the canards. Both the VF-19F and VF-19S replace them with verniers and at least the VF-19S has rather conventional wings. So basically you just backed yourself into “well the dedicated atmospheric version of the VF-19 can compete with the VF-22S in atmosphere.” It’s pretty bad when you break tradition and need a separate atmospheric and space fighter, ne? Especially when the runner up can compete with both in their specialized environment. That doesn’t speak well for the VF-19 series instead of for the VF-22S, if you have to specialize to just compete in the given area something seriously wrong here.

You're falling back pretty quickly here aren't you azrael and not even bothering to check?

Eight hard point weapon stations for two internal cartridge-less gatling gun pods each with retractable grip and retractable stealth cover mounted below fuselage and to the rear of fuselage in Fighter mode or on leg storage bay cover panels or in manipulators in GERWALK and Battroid modes.

No the guns have their own bays.

The "Exclusive internal pallet(s)" might refer to the storage of the micro-missiles.

It talks about the micromissiles launchers and then says exclusive internal pallets and it's a might? It's clearly 3 Standard internal pallets, plus exclusive pallets for the minimissiles, plus special weapon stations for the gund pods.

Two internal Little Rock launch systems in lower leg/engine-pod bays for 24 high maneuverability micro missiles (VF-19F, VF-19S only) or six medium-range high maneuverability missiles each (Pallet can be alternately equipped with other weapon packs).

Now tell me again why the YF-19s internal standard pallets shouldn't be equivalent to the VF-19's internal pallets? You're the one claiming the VF-19 is a better deicated bombtruck against the stats, burden of proof is on you, not me. So lets see some actual proof, instead of hedging.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

I have a question: why did guld tell Isamu that "he has a better chance" of defeating the Sharon Apple-hacked ghost drone?

Was he just being arrogant because his plane seemed more reliable and he thought he was a guy who kept his cool better than the "hothead" rival from dalumucia high? .... or was it based on some stats that UN spacy did that suggested the YF21 was winning the comp due to BCS?

In terms of maneuverability the yf21 seemed like a more reliable machine to me if the combat took place in space. The 19 seemed to lack firepower in fighter mode compared to the 21. You got those two gunpods, two arm laser thingys,(can even fire them backwards!) all those micromissiles all firing at once and because it has Qrau-style space manueaverability in battroid and fighter modes, it might be quicker to respond in more situations. The wings and fins are also bendable which is a cool thing. Ok ok I forgot to mention those wing root lasers in the 19, but from playing the macross plus arcade game you will see for yourselfs that the yf21 is far superior to the yf19 in general speed! The way the yf21 barrel rolls across the screen is insane that only a good pilot would be able to handle it in tight situations due to how quick it can move. Whereas the vf11 and vf19 are slower than 21 here. But slower speed in the game doesn't automatically mean better performance as if you go too fast you can't control the plane when enemy fire is close together. Maybe only a skilled pilot can handle all that agility since you will crash into things easier if the speed is too great. I think if milia and max had twin brothers or sisters and the twins were forced to fight against each other, the ones that were in the 21 would win in a space dogfight due to them having the skills and reflexs to be able to handle the extra manueverability.

Order of goodness in the game: vf11, yf19, yf21

Even if the 19 was better for atmoshpere I would still choose a yf21 since it can match its speed and sneak around with stealth. It seemed to me in the anime that the yf21s features were more advanced (probably more expensive too since only max and milia use the vf22 in macross 7, and all the eye cameras on the body of the plane would be handy feature to me when in space, especially the one on top of the battroid head or the one under the nose of the plane which eliminates a blindspot from a sneaky person. No need to move the head turret due to seeing everything at once) but that the BCS was too dangerous. At the start the zentradi team were confident they were going to win the competion and had a pretty relaxed attitude. (probably due to all the pilot deaths from the 19 and the recklessness of Dyson)

Edited by 1/1 LowViz Lurker, 12 May 2005 - 10:19 PM.

[JB0]

I have a question: why did guld tell Isamu that "he has a better chance" of defeating the Sharon Apple-hacked ghost drone?

Was he just being arrogant because his plane seemed more reliable and he thought he was a guy who kept his cool better than the "hothead" rival from dalumucia high? .... or was it based on some stats that UN spacy did that suggested the YF21 was winning the comp due to BCS?

I think it was the BCS. But not because that was the only signifigant diffrence.

But Guld was working controls faster and more precisely while processing more information about what was going on. And, of course, once he started pulling the really high Gs, he wouldn't have been able to work the controls manually anyways, so if it'd been Isamu he'd've crashed right there.

[hellohikaru]

Briareos9

Just to clear up that the VF-19S has the same stubby wings as the VF-19F. Basically it is just the commander version of the 19F.

The VF-19Kai and P variants have most of the 19F's features but with the wings of the 19A. So taking middle road here.

I don't think the 19A will be at any major disadvantage in Space but it is definitely fighting in its element when inside atmosphere. Just as the 19F/S can also fight in atmospheric conditions just not quite as well without the canards and wings.

[mikeszekely]

My vote's for the VF-22.

Face it, the 19 was flawed from the get go, killing a number of test pilots. While that may have be remedied in the F/S models, the A is essentially still the YF-19. It only one Supernova for two reasons:

1) After the Sharon Apple Incident, it was the only on still standing.

2) It was apparently cheaper. The technology in the BDS and the morphing wings was clearly expensive.

So, when the first VF-19A's were going into production, General Galaxy had to take the 21 back to the drawing board to whittle it down the the more conventional, practical, and less expensive VF-22. Once they'd done that, suddenly the UN is interested again, as a replacement for the VF-17. And I think it's more telling that Diamond Force, Max, and Millia were all flying VF-22's while the VF-19s still hadn't actually replaced the VF-11, but was still used only by elites like Emerald Force and the VF-X Ravens.

[hellohikaru]

So the morphing wings were more costly but didn't it make to the final VF-22 design ? Or those wings just fold downwards in cheapo style.

If we go by VF-X-2 then the UN Spacy weren't going to purchase either VF-19 or VF-22 in large numbers. Rather they supplement the Thunderbolts with production variants of the Ghost X-9(AIF-9B ?).

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

But Guld was working controls faster and more precisely while processing more information about what was going on. And, of course, once he started pulling the really high Gs, he wouldn't have been able to work the controls manually anyways, so if it'd been Isamu he'd've crashed right there.

I would think due to direct brain control of the plane it would be like the plane itself was his own body and his real eyes that were closed was like him being in Virtual reality mode. Plus he would be able to "see" things from different directions simultaneously (the various sensors on the body of the plane) rather than having to turn his head so have better repsone.

All the minimissiles he could just dodge since the paths would be given in realtime to his head allowing him to perform manuevers only aces could get away with. (ie max's dodging through a swarm of missiles) Maybe it would be like he was a bit psychic and the computer could give a crystal ball vision of the future, or act as a spiderman "spidersense". (imagine a birds'eye view of the battle playing in your mind like a RTS computer game.)

Also another disadvantage of the 19 might be if one of the clips needs to be loaded into the gunpod, he would need to change into battroid mode and reload and then change back into fighter again. That delay might cost life. Much better to have 2 gunpods in fighter imo If a team of elite Qraus is on your tail they might not give you the chance to find a spot to hide and then reload your gun anyway.

Edited by 1/1 LowViz Lurker, 12 May 2005 - 10:50 PM.

[Nied]

I'm always anoyed by the assumption that because the prototype was hard to fly or crashed a lot that the end result will be as well. The whole point of building a prototype and testing it with experienced piolots is to find out where you can push a machine to and not get killed, the fact that some people were killed while doing it is not surprising, prototype aircraft do that sometimes. As hellohikaru pointed out it's pretty easy to program the flight controll system to keep a green pilot out of a situation that killed an experienced one. If anything the fact that the YF-21 went through the compettion without any accidents might show an overabundacne of caution on General Galaxie's part. They never tried to pushed their VF past its limits and thus never really showed its full potential. Especially when your submiting such a radical design it's a good idea to do that. Actually that's just one more parralell with the real life ATF competion: one competitor submited a pretty conventional design, (the YF-22) but tested the hell out of it, (high angle of attack maneuvering missile firing tests) while the other submited a radical new design, (the YF-23) but didn't do as much heavy testing on it.

Edited by Nied, 13 May 2005 - 12:58 AM.

[Graham]

I think a possible reason that several test pilots were killed or injured during the testing of the YF-19 was perhaps beacuse the fly-by-wire (or is it fly-by-light) flight control software was still not perfected at that time.

I'm sure by the time of the production VF-19A all the bugs would have been ironed out by Shinsei Industries, otherwise I doubt that the UN Spacy would have accepted it into service.

Graham

[Final Vegeta]

I'm sure by the time of the production VF-19A all the bugs would have been ironed out by Shinsei Industries, otherwise I doubt that the UN Spacy would have accepted it into service.

I dunno. They are Japanese, they think different. Maybe they will think the pilot is bugged instead of the plane. The pilot has to iron out the imperfections in his mind first, so that there won't be any difference between the YF-19's cockpit and his living room. Japanese teachings seem to start in this way.

In WWII all American bombings in Japanese cities were "expected". As such they still thought they were the master of their destiny, and so they didn't worry when they saw bombers coming because everything was foreseen. Safety mechanisms on planes were seen as a proof of cowardice on the American side. They nearly had troubles believing Americans got decorated for something as shameful as saving the life of their buddies. The eyes of the world were watching the Japanese, so they have do everything with the most dignity, even when they were fleeing a sinking ship with life boats. Journalists protested lack of freedom in press because everyone was too intimidated by the fascist government to talk, and so the Japanese couldn't work at their best for the war. Japanese mentality is too different to be understood.

FV

[EganLoo]

I was only going to peek into this forum after talking to Shawn on the phone, but I couldn't resist a nuts-and-bolts discussion. Grab coffee--this is a long one:

• For a level playing field, the VF-19S should be compared to the VF-22S, not the VF-19F.

• Likewise, we should leave the YF-19 and YF-21 out of the comparison as much as possible. I'll correct the YF-19 and YF-21 misconceptions in this thread, but the comparison itself should be between the production versions.

• The creators do specifically describe the VF-19 as being more maneuverable and faster than the VF-22 and the VF-22 being more massive than the VF-19. That may have to do with the active airflow control units, although I like to pin them down to specifics first.

• Transformation aside, the creators don't say that the VF-19S is an upgraded VF-4. (It's a rough analogy, but that would be more a description of the VF-14.) If anything, they say that it is an upgrade of Shinsei's own VF-11 Thunderbolt.

• The arm cannons of the VF-22S aren't described as semi-fixed--just the YF-21's ones are. (Similarly, the YF-19 had semi-fixed energy cannons in its wings, but it and the VF-19 were later equipped with fixed wing cannons.)

• The VF-19S has four laser cannons in addition to the beam gun on its head turret.

• The tail stabilizers are described as being used as shields for the VF-22S, but unlike the VF-19S's and VF-11's shields, they are not described as anti-projectile without the pin-point barrier.

• The VF-22S's four ventral micro-missile ports and gun pods take up most of the internal pallet points, just like the VF-19S's leg pallets are usually taken up by missiles.

• The YF-19 also had active stealth system just like the YF-21. (It's sort of a moot point, since both the VF-19S and VF-22S have it anyways.)

• Why is VF-22S passively stealth when it has the active stealth system? Simple. Shoji Kawamori thinks the YF-23 looks cool.

• The VF-19S is not more "fuel" hungry per se, since neither craft uses "fuel" per se. Thermonuclear reaction engines don't "burn" fuel like conventional jet engines do. (That's why the conventionally-powered VF-0 and SV-51 pilots had to worry about fuel, while future pilots didn't.)

Reaction engines do need propellant, but in atmosphere, they simply use air for a effectively limitless propellant supply. In space, the engines do need propellant, but since the VF-22S is heavier when empty than the VF-19S, the VF-19S actually needs less propellant than the VF-22S for the equivalent delta-v.

• The official casualty tallies depends on which version of Macross Plus you watch. In the video version, it's 7-2 against the YF-19, whereas in the movie edition that Kawamori originally conceived, it's 0-2 against the YF-21. Remember that the video-only gun pod incident was (questionably) blamed on the YF-19, while the "down force" incident was (questionably) blamed on the YF-21.

In any case, it's the production history that matters, not the development history.

• The max speed for the VF-19F/S/Custom is Mach 25+, not Mach 21+.

• The Macross 7 colony fleet actually produced at least 5 VF-19s onscreen by 2046 (6 onscreen if one counts the test unit, 7 if one counts the VF-19 Custom). In the same timeframe, there were only 2 VF-22Ss. (Gamlin's VF-22S would not come until Macross Dynamite 7, by which point even the Zola patrol force had a VF-19.)

• Whether or not VF-22S can even be equipped with engines as powerful as the VF-19S's is speculation, and decidedly not certainty. Notice that the VF-22S has less space allotted for engine pods due to its unique configuration and VTOL "slits." Unlike most variable fighters, the VF-22S's engine pods actually have to contract for GERWALK and Battroid modes.

• It's difficult to compare missiles to missiles and guns to guns without knowing their specifications. Still, the VF-22S does not have more guns than the VF-19S (5 vs. 7) or more pointing in different directions. The VF-22S does have more missile capacity, but not as much as implied above since much of its internal pallet points are taken up by the ventral micro missile clusters and gun pods, just like the VF-19S's leg pallets.

• The YF-21's FAST Packs could not be "worn" on the VF-22S without interfering with the ventral micro missile ports. (Which is one reason why we don't see the YF-21's FAST Packs on the VF-22S--they're redundant.)

• The YF-21's arm FAST Packs' main function is not shield armor -- just like the YF-19's shoulder pack and VF-0's dorsal pods, they're propellant tanks (well, fuel tanks for the VF-0). That's why they took only a minor shot to explode in a nicely animated fireball in Macross Plus.

• The YF-19's FAST Pack do not take up the leg points for the internal pallets. The YF-19 (and likewise, the VF-19S) can use both the internal missile launchers and the FAST Pack's missile launchers in the same mission. Notice the one scene in Macross Plus where Isamu fires from his internal missile pallet, even though he still had his FAST Packs. Likewise the YF-19's shoulder FAST Packs are not pointless--they're propellant tanks, just like the YF-21's. It's not stated whether they have "holes" for the existing verniers, or if they have verniers of their own.

• The VF-19S design is not "incredibly difficult to fly." The creators make a specific point of stating that the VF-19 is "easy to control" despite of--or indeed, because of--the YF-19's trials (and despite having higher maneuverability than the VF-22S).

• The YF-19 and VF-19S may not have the exact beam cannons that the VF-4 has, but they do have some nicely hefty wing root cannons, either energy cannons in one variant or laser cannons in the other.

• The creators do not say that VF-19A was specifically designed for atmospheric use. (By the way, the VF-19P also has canards.) The creators do not say that the VF-19 had "to specialize to just compete in a given area." (Interestingly, the liner notes claim that Gamlin's VF-22S's "production number is the same [as Max and Milia's VF-22S] but its canard stabilizers and avionics were modified." Yet, that doesn't mean the VF-22S had "to specialize just to compete in a given area" anymore than the VF-19 family's differences mean that.)

• The "eight hardpoints" that the creators mention in the VF-22S specifications also refer to the points used for the previously described pallets. It's a little confusing (and definitely not orthodox terminology), but that's how they wrote the specs.

• Despite the Macross Plus game, the creators themselves describe the the YF-19 and VF-19S as being faster than their YF-21 and VF-22S counterparts at low and high altitudes. (As noted above, they also describe the VF-19S as more maneuverably than the VF-22S.)

• Like the YF-19, the VF-19S has virtually panoramic monitors, making blind spots a minor issue.

• The creators do not say that the VF-19F/S's verniers put it at a disadvantage compared to the VF-19A in atmosphere. In fact, certain scenes in Macross Plus point out the advantage of using verniers that never run out of "fuel" in atmosphere.

• The creator do not say that the YF-19 was won Project Supernova because it was the only one still standing or that it was cheaper. In fact, it wasn't the only one still standing at all -- there were two YF-21 [corrected] prototypes (the first had a conventional control system).

• The creators specifically mention that the only 2 VF-22Ss in the Macross 7 fleet had in 2046 were produced under a special experimental license.

• By 2047, the VF-19 was not being used only by elite pilots. By that time, even the Zola patrol force outside the regular UN Spacy had obtained the the VF-19.

• "Due to the high cost and problems in the construction of the main wing's complex structure, [the YF-21's variable cross-section] technology is not intended for mass production."

All in all, the creators took care to balance the different strengths and weaknesses of the VF-19S and the VF-22S (and their prototypes). They do note that the VF-19S is the better overall fighter with its speed and manueverability, while the VF-22S is the better craft for special missions with its mass and payload -- which is exactly how each is used.

[Edited for a typo]

Edited by EganLoo, 13 May 2005 - 03:19 PM.

[azrael]

I was only going to peek into this forum after talking to Shawn on the phone, but I couldn't resist a nuts-and-bolts discussion. Grab coffee--this is a long one:

Coffee? Check. Only got 4 hours of sleep. *downs coffee*

• The creators do specifically describe the VF-19 as being more maneuverable and faster than the VF-22 and the VF-22 being more massive than the VF-19. That may have to do with the active airflow control units, although I like to pin them down to specifics first.

Forgot about those....

• Why is VF-22S passively stealth when it has the active stealth system? Simple. Shoji Kawamori thinks the YF-23 looks cool.

ROFLMAO Sorry, lack of sleep...

• It's difficult to compare missiles to missiles and guns to guns without knowing their specifications. Still, the VF-22S does not have more guns than the VF-19S (5 vs. 7) or more pointing in different directions. The VF-22S does have more missile capacity, but not as much as implied above since much of its internal pallet points are taken up by the ventral micro missile clusters and gun pods, just like the VF-19S's leg pallets.

After pondering and rethinking this on the way home yesterday, I was wondering, did the creators note what they meant by "cartridge-less gatling gun pods"? Was it case-less ammunition or was it no removable magazine? Thanks.

• The "eight hardpoints" that the creators mention in the VF-22S specifications also refer to the points used for the previously described pallets. It's a little confusing (and definitely not orthodox terminology), but that's how they wrote the specs.

Perhaps they were slighty drunk when they wrote it?

They do note that the VF-19S is the better overall fighter with its speed and manueverability, while the VF-22S is the better craft for special missions with its mass and payload -- which is exactly how each is used.

I think I said something similar to that....perhaps it was on the old board...

[Briareos9]

VF-19S vs VF-22S: translation: we need to go for the tweaked out VF-19 to even compete with just the plain jane production VF-22? Look at the code designation, the VF-22 was the advance production version and the VF-22S is just the production version.

he arm cannons of the VF-22S aren't described as semi-fixed--just the YF-21's ones are. (Similarly, the YF-19 had semi-fixed energy cannons in its wings, but it and the VF-19 were later equipped with fixed wing cannons.)

It doesn't say one way or the other, just they're converging energy cannons. As messing with the arms isn't listed in the upgrades they should still be.

The VF-19S has four laser cannons in addition to the beam gun on its head turret.

And?! That's like saying the VF-1S has four LASERs, sure but they're all smaller. Just because it has four smalls to a VF-1A's 1 big doesn't mean they're more powerful. You're getting 13MJ from the reactor over each pulse period either way so the VF-1A's would be doing what with the excess energy, just dumping it as waste heat? Personally don't buy it.

The tail stabilizers are described as being used as shields for the VF-22S, but unlike the VF-19S's and VF-11's shields, they are not described as anti-projectile without the pin-point barrier.

Seems as how the PPBs basically envelope them unlike the VF-19 series' shield do they need to be?

The VF-22S's four ventral micro-missile ports and gun pods take up most of the internal pallet points, just like the VF-19S's leg pallets are usually taken up by missiles.

Proof?
VF-19

Fighter mode:
Wing span: VF-19A, fully swept forward----------14.87 m
VF-19F, VF-19S----------------------------------------13.52 m

Length overall: VF-19A------------------------------18.62 m
VF-19 Custom, F, S------------------------------------18.47 m

Height overall: VF-19A------------------------------3.94 m

The VF-19’s oragami transformation equipment takes up so much room it’s internal weapon systems could only somehow be crammed into its lower legs, around the engine. Personally I can’t see 6 MRHMs being crammed in there. Even the ones fired in Macross Plus seemed kind of big to be storing in there.

VF-22S

Fighter mode

Wing span:---------------------------------------------------------15.36m
Length overall:----------------------------------------------------19.62m
Height overall:-----------------------------------------------------4.04m

So you want to tell me over 1/10 of the fighter’s weight and a significant size difference (although not enough to affect things like its performance in the space-superiority role for being to big ) is just because they went to internal stowage with separate legs from the thrusters? I could always point out that unlike the VF-19 the main thrusters are not in the VF-22S’s legs, causing less of a need to make it fit around. Also the VF-22S’s guns collapse when not in use while the VF-19’s is always full size.

Why is VF-22S passively stealth when it has the active stealth system? Simple. Shoji Kawamori thinks the YF-23 looks cool.

Breaking of SoD. I could say Kawamori had the YF-19 win because he wanted to use both designs after putting the time in.

The VF-19S is not more "fuel" hungry per se, since neither craft uses "fuel" per se. Thermonuclear reaction engines don't "burn" fuel like conventional jet engines do. (That's why the conventionally-powered VF-0 and SV-51 pilots had to worry about fuel, while future pilots didn't.)

You're kidding right? A fusion (thermonuclear) engine isn't a magical get something for nothing & violate the Second Law of Thermodynamics while we're at it piece of equipment. D-T or whatever it's using still counts as fuel.

The Macross 7 colony fleet actually produced at least 5 VF-19s onscreen by 2046 (6 onscreen if one counts the test unit, 7 if one counts the VF-19 Custom). In the same timeframe, there were only 2 VF-22Ss. (Gamlin's VF-22S would not come until Macross Dynamite 7, by which point even the Zola patrol force had a VF-19.)

Prove limitation is actual production instead of people ordering them. That they'd need a prototype VF-19 by then but could just shell out the VF-22Ss doesn't go in the VF-19's favor. What were the conditions around this expiremental license? Was it a work around to let them get their paws on one? Expiremental in that the colony production facilities hadn't been used to make them, or what?

It's difficult to compare missiles to missiles and guns to guns without knowing their specifications. Still, the VF-22S does not have more guns than the VF-19S (5 vs. 7) or more pointing in different directions. The VF-22S does have more missile capacity, but not as much as implied above since much of its internal pallet points are taken up by the ventral micro missile clusters and gun pods, just like the VF-19S's leg pallets.

Let's see for the VF-22S Converging Energy head unit +2 arm units facing rear. 2 Converging energy cannons facing fore. 2 gun pods facing who knows which way.

VF-19: 5 Lasers clustered on head unit aft sort of, fore unlikely, upper arc the four lightweights only. Only the 1 aft sort of on the non squad leader combat version. 2 small bore lasers fixed in wing roots fore firing only. 1 GU-15 external gun pod.

Prove the internal pallet points go to the micromissiles, seems as how it clearly states exclusive pallets.

The YF-21's FAST Packs could not be "worn" on the VF-22S without interfering with the ventral micro missile ports. (Which is one reason why we don't see the YF-21's FAST Packs on the VF-22S--they're redundant.)

And they count mount them, use them, discard them and then use the internalized form because, why again? Yes they internalized them, but that doesn't prevent another external set from being stuck on, these thing are designed to be ejected you know.

The YF-19's FAST Pack do not take up the leg points for the internal pallets. The YF-19 (and likewise, the VF-19S) can use both the internal missile launchers and the FAST Pack's missile launchers in the same mission. Notice the one scene in Macross Plus where Isamu fires from his internal missile pallet, even though he still had his FAST Packs. Likewise the YF-19's shoulder FAST Packs are not pointless--they're propellant tanks, just like the YF-21's.

Those are pretty small for fuel storage. Plus you're strawmanning, they take up FAST point to the legs. Where did anyone state anything about them taking up internal storage, nevermind how that's even supposed to work?

The YF-19 and VF-19S may not have the exact beam cannons that the VF-4 has, but they do have some nicely hefty wing root cannons, either energy cannons in one variant or laser cannons in the other

Those things hefty?

Why is the P/Custom even coming up?
They're not really combat versions and they're not exactly standard issue.

The "eight hardpoints" that the creators mention in the VF-22S specifications also refer to the points used for the previously described pallets. It's a little confusing (and definitely not orthodox terminology), but that's how they wrote the specs.

Source?

[Prime]

But isn't the important thing what looks better?

[Briareos9]

So you think just because the VF-22/YF-21 need to linearly shorten their main engine compartment it can’t mount a big of engines as the one that needs to severly bend in the middle (GERWALK mode) and squash it just before the nozzle to allow it to carry missiles? ?_?

Not to mention that canonically before when it had Shinnakasu Industry engines it was getting

Shinnakasu Industry/P&W/Roice FF-2500E thermonuclear turbine engines replacing two 56500 kg [x g] class (maximum instantaneous thrust in space)

While the YF-21 with Shinnakasu Industry engines was getting

Two 41200 kg [x g] class (maximum instantaneous thrust in atmosphere; 65200 kg [x g] class in space) Shinnakasu Industry/P&W/Roice FF-2450B thermonuclear engines

It’s quite simple Shinsei made a breakthrough in engine design that let them get their 56,500 kg equivalent up to 78,950 kg class. They’re design couldn’t accommodate as big of engines as the YF-21 or else you better start explaining why they’re such morons as to underdo their engines below the competitor. If General Galaxy had the technology especially as their fighter is hardier (much higher G tolerance) they’d be mounting engines in the 80 tonne class. If the VF-22 had such engines and newer better verniers with it’s OS revamped to accommodate would you still say the VF-19 has a maneuverability advantage?

If we gave the VF-22S the same boost (VF-19S engine thrust-YF-19 Shinnakasu+VF-22 thrust) as goes to the VF-19S in engine performance it’d be carrying 87,660 kg class engines and getting a 18.77G thrust to mass ratio verse a 18.32 G thrust to mass for the VF-19S. Yeah the actual engine's weight will probably tweak that but the figure's still telling. It's only a matter of time before General Galaxy figures out a way to do it without corporate espionage or violating patents, only a matter of time.

The VF-19A is implied to be for atmospheric given only it has the real FSW and canards, and its engines aren’t rated for maximum instantaneous in space. If they were they’re carrying 56,500 kg class and have nothing on the VF-22/YF-21 in the acceleration department. The key argument to the VF-19A being more maneuverable is those FSW and canards which are deleted on the F and S. Otherwise it’s conventional wings with verniers (VF-19F/S) vs conventional wings with verniers + a few extra things (VF-22S).

Shinsei may have aimed more for the UNAF instead of the UNS with some of it's stuff seems as how the Supernova contract was with the UNAF, while the VF-22S's was with the UNS. The procurement issues like politics, cost, backroom maneuvers, what the UNAF top brass was looking for, etc. is unknown.

What bugs me is the VF-19 has a AI control system so it's in many ways just for hold outs against the X-9. Makes me wonder if Sharon tweaked it to help Myung's boyfriend while she was at it. Given everything else she did just so Myung would get straightened out, and Isamu would recognize the importance of his feelings for her it wouldn't suprise me.

[JB0]

But isn't the important thing what looks better?

Of course it is.
Which is why the VF-22 is the winner!

[EganLoo]

Nothing like nesting quotes to really make reply formatting fun.

[quote name='Briareos9' date='May 13 2005, 09:36 AM']VF-19S vs VF-22S: translation: we need to go for the tweaked out VF-19 to even compete with just the plain jane production VF-22?     Look at the code designation, the VF-22 was the advance production version and the VF-22S is just the production version.[/quote]

Interestingly, Gamlin's later VF-22S is "tweaked" upon the earlier two VF-22Ss even though its "production number is the same [as Max and Milia's VF-22Ss]," which were experimentally-licensed. The notes for Gamlin's unit also list "the head is a commander type," just like the VF-19S.

[quote]
[quote]he arm cannons of the VF-22S aren't described as semi-fixed--just the YF-21's ones are. (Similarly, the YF-19 had semi-fixed energy cannons in its wings, but it and the VF-19 were later equipped with fixed wing cannons.)[/quote]It doesn't say one way or the other, just they're converging energy cannons. As messing with the arms isn't listed in the upgrades they should still be.[/quote]

The "messing with the arms" upgrade occurred in the YF-19's development stage. By the time the VF-19, they had settled on one type of weapon to install there.

[quote]
[quote]The VF-19S has four laser cannons in addition to the beam gun on its head turret.[/quote]And?! That's like saying the VF-1S has four LASERs, sure but they're all smaller. Just because it has four smalls to a VF-1A's 1 big doesn't mean they're more powerful. You're getting 13MJ from the reactor over each pulse period either way so the VF-1A's would be doing what with the excess energy, just dumping it as waste heat? Personally don't buy it.[/quote]

For what it is worth, the VF-1S and VF-19S have different variants of engines than the VF-1A and the VF-19F, and the creators do not state that the VF-1S's lasers are smaller than the VF-1A's. (They are the same type of RÖV-20 guns.) In any case, this point was brought up because the claim was made that the VF-22S had "more guns pointed several which ways" when it doesn't.

[quote]
[quote]The tail stabilizers are described as being used as shields for the VF-22S, but unlike the VF-19S's and VF-11's shields, they are not described as anti-projectile without the pin-point barrier.[/quote]Seems as how the PPBs basically envelope them unlike the VF-19 series' shield do they need to be?[/quote]

Actually, Shoji Kawamori drew a design specifying that the VF-19's pin-point barrier can also envelop its entire shield. How strong a shield is without the barrier does matter since he also notes that using the pin-point barrier has to employ a significant portion of the engines' output in Battroid mode (sapping power from the other systems).

[quote]
[quote]The VF-22S's four ventral micro-missile ports and gun pods take up most of the internal pallet points, just like the VF-19S's leg pallets are usually taken up by missiles.[/quote]Proof?[/quote]

Well, the creators say so. I can format the specifications to make that clearer.

[quote]
VF-19
[quote]
Fighter mode:
Wing span: VF-19A, fully swept forward----------14.87 m
VF-19F, VF-19S----------------------------------------13.52 m

Length overall: VF-19A------------------------------18.62 m
VF-19 Custom, F, S------------------------------------18.47 m

Height overall: VF-19A------------------------------3.94 m
[/quote]
The VF-19’s oragami transformation equipment takes up so much room it’s internal weapon systems could only somehow be crammed into its lower legs, around the engine. Personally I can’t see 6 MRHMs being crammed in there. Even the ones fired in Macross Plus seemed kind of big to be storing in there.[/quote]

Fortunately, you don't have to imagine how they can--Shoji Kawamori drew a diagram of how the Little Rock missile system fits inside the leg pallets.

[quote]
VF-22S

So you want to tell me over 1/10 of the fighter’s weight and a significant size difference (although not enough to affect things like its performance in the space-superiority role for being to big ) is just because they went to internal stowage with separate legs from the thrusters?  I could always point out that unlike the VF-19 the main thrusters are not in the VF-22S’s legs, causing less of a need to make it fit around.  Also the VF-22S’s guns collapse when not in use while the VF-19’s is always full size.[/quote]

Actually, someone else was making that statement. I did make the point about the engine pods' size though, since it was Shoji Kawamori made that point. He notes that unlike previous variable fighters, the engine pods of the YF-21 and VF-22S has to physically contract to transform between modes, so he had to design Venetian-blind-like slits (which also double as VTOL hovering nozzles) to accommodate. One can speculate and hypothesize that the VF-22S can eventually accommodate more powerful engines, but it would be just that--speculation.

In any case, the engine output is not the only reason that the creators state that the '19 is more maneuverable. Other reasons include the active airflow control units and improved verniers.

[quote]
[quote]Why is VF-22S passively stealth when it has the active stealth system? Simple. Shoji Kawamori thinks the YF-23 looks cool. [/quote]Breaking of SoD. I could say Kawamori had the YF-19 win because he wanted to use both designs after putting the time in.[/quote]

Actually, it's the other way around. The VF-22S was introduced because he wanted to use that design after it didn't win Project Supernova. Hefty suspense of disbelief is what all Macross fans should have, especially when it comes to stealth as Kawamori admitted after the fact. After all, why does the VF-17 have the old faceted passive stealth design when Earth not only developed computer-aided curved-surface passive stealth design before VFs, but also curved-surface passive stealth designs in VFs predating the VF-17?

[quote]
[quote]The VF-19S is not more "fuel" hungry per se, since neither craft uses "fuel" per se. Thermonuclear reaction engines don't "burn" fuel like conventional jet engines do. (That's why the conventionally-powered VF-0 and SV-51 pilots had to worry about fuel, while future pilots didn't.)[/quote] You're kidding right? A fusion (thermonuclear) engine isn't a magical get something for nothing & violate the Second Law of Thermodynamics while we're at it piece of equipment. D-T or whatever it's using still counts as fuel.[/quote]

The thermonuclear reaction engine is indeed not a magical piece of equipment, but it is not "fuel hungry" or "burn fuel" like conventional engines do. (Incidentally, the creators make a point that fictional Macross thermonuclear reaction is similar but different from real-world nuclear fusion, with a specific point that doesn't need what we now call "nuclear fuel" like D-T.) The point the creators are making is that in atmosphere, the reaction engines doesn't have to worry about "fueling" since it takes what it needs from the atmosphere for effectively limitless range. (In any case, as noted above, since the VF-22S is more massive empty than the VF-19S, the need for more propellant to effect the same delta-V actually works against the VF-22S in space.)

[quote]
[quote]The Macross 7 colony fleet actually produced at least 5 VF-19s onscreen by 2046 (6 onscreen if one counts the test unit, 7 if one counts the VF-19 Custom). In the same timeframe, there were only 2 VF-22Ss. (Gamlin's VF-22S would not come until Macross Dynamite 7, by which point even the Zola patrol force had a VF-19.)[/quote]Prove limitation is actual production instead of people ordering them. That they'd need a prototype VF-19 by then but could just shell out the VF-22Ss doesn't go in the VF-19's favor. What were the conditions around this expiremental license? Was it a work around to let them get their paws on one? Expiremental in that the colony production facilities hadn't been used to make them, or what?[/quote]

The VF-19 test unit the Macross 7 fleet had is not a prototype unit. Real-life aircraft manufacturer often produce fully-functional "production-representative" early units after the actual prototype. According to the notes, the two VF-22Ss were produced under an experimental license at Macross 7 fleet's factory for the specific use of Captain Max Jenius. However, one was <cough>appropriated<cough> for Milia. (The notes don't actually lists the <coughs>, but they do note that some secrecy was involved in assigning Milia one of them.)

[quote]Let's see for the VF-22S Converging Energy head unit +2 arm units facing rear.  2 Converging energy cannons facing fore.  2 gun pods facing who knows which way.

VF-19: 5 Lasers clustered on head unit aft sort of, fore unlikely, upper arc the four lightweights only.  Only the 1 aft sort of on the non squad leader combat version.  2 small bore lasers fixed in wing roots fore firing only.  1 GU-15 external gun pod.[/quote]

The VF-19S has four laser cannon and one beam gun, not five lasers, in the head unit. Its wing cannons are not described as small-bore. The VF-22S's 2 arm units and the 2 converging energy cannons are the same two units, just like the VF-17's arm guns and the VB-6's rails guns which double as its propulsion system.

[quote]
[quote]The YF-21's FAST Packs could not be "worn" on the VF-22S without interfering with the ventral micro missile ports. (Which is one reason why we don't see the YF-21's FAST Packs on the VF-22S--they're redundant.)[/quote] And they count mount them, use them, discard them and then use the internalized form because, why again? Yes they internalized them, but that doesn't prevent another external set from being stuck on, these thing are designed to be ejected you know.[/quote]

This reply was in response to a claim that the YF-21 FAST Pack do not "interfere with anything else" when installed on the VF-22 when they would prevent the use of the internal micro missiles as long as they are mounted. However, it is a moot point since the creators don't say that the YF-21's FAST Packs are even physically compatible with the VF-22S. VF-22S leg FAST Packs are speculation until the creators do design some specific to the VF-22S.
[Removed repeated "the" in the last paragraph]

[quote]
[quote]The YF-19's FAST Pack do not take up the leg points for the internal pallets. The YF-19 (and likewise, the VF-19S) can use both the internal missile launchers and the FAST Pack's missile launchers in the same mission. Notice the one scene in Macross Plus where Isamu fires from his internal missile pallet, even though he still had his FAST Packs. Likewise the YF-19's shoulder FAST Packs are not pointless--they're propellant tanks, just like the YF-21's. [/quote] Those are pretty small for fuel storage. Plus you're strawmanning, they take up FAST point to the legs. Where did anyone state anything about them taking up internal storage, nevermind how that's even supposed to work?[/quote]

This was an observation that the VF-19S's FAST Packs do not need to be ejected to use its leg micro-missiles, whereas the (speculative) VF-22S's FAST Packs do need to be ejected to use its ventral micro-missiles.

[quote]
Why is the P/Custom even coming up?
They're not really combat versions and they're not exactly standard issue.
[/quote]

While the VF-19 Custom is not a combat unit, the VF-19P is a combat unit (albeit with the Zola patrol force). That's why the creators note that it adds an additional head unit gun and micro-missile launchers. (Notably, two of the three VF-22S we have for comparison purposes aren't "exactly standard issue" either.)

In the end, we're back with the same conclusions, once we take away the what-if speculations and go with the creators' words: the VF-19S is faster and more maneuverable, while the VF-22S is more massive and has more payload.

[Edited for double "the the"]

Edited by EganLoo, 13 May 2005 - 03:22 PM.

[Briareos9]

The "messing with the arms" upgrade occurred in the YF-19's development stage. By the time the VF-19, they had settled on one type of weapon to install there.

And who was talking about the VF-19 there especially given the VF-19 doesn’t have guns in the arms?

In any case, this point was brought up because the claim was made that the VF-22S had "more guns pointed several which ways" when it doesn't.

I made that claim and all you’ve done it brought up a technicality due to the wording. The spirit behind it still stands. Gun coverage on the VF-19 series is good only fore, and behind and above which doesn’t guard its six very well. VF-22S/YF-21 coverage is solid both fore and aft and the mini-missiles help deter anyone coming from any other direction. An enemy fighter will have a bigger problems approaching a VF-22/YF-21.

In any case, the engine output is not the only reason that the creators state that the '19 is more maneuverable. Other reasons include the active airflow control units and improved verniers.

Translation: it has a unit that only works in atmosphere helping it (better for the UNAF, but not the UNS) and the creators (Kawamori) held the VF-22S back from getting the new HMM-7 verniers in addition to improved engines. The VF-22 series still has the potential.

Actually, it's the other way around.  The VF-22S was introduced because he wanted to use that design after it didn't win Project Supernova. Hefty suspense of disbelief is what all Macross fans should have, especially when it comes to stealth as Kawamori admitted after the fact.

Who, in reality, determined who won Project Supernova sir? And if he had went the other way what would the VF-19 be doing? You broke SoD, so all I’m doing is pointing out the greater extent of the SoD consequences.

The thermonuclear reaction engine is indeed not a magical piece of equipment, but it is not "fuel hungry" or "burn fuel" like conventional engines do. (Incidentally, the creators make a point that fictional Macross thermonuclear reaction is similar but different from real-world nuclear fusion, with a specific point that doesn't need what we now call "nuclear fuel" like D-T.) The point the creators are making is that in atmosphere, the reaction engines doesn't have to worry about "fueling" since it takes what it needs from the atmosphere for effectively limitless range.

Based on what? The readouts say air is used as coolant/propellant giving it nearly unlimited range, nothing about the power source itself. Just because it’s propellant is air says nothing about its use of fuel. The fusion reaction might be heating the air as it goes past in atmosphere, for example.

The VF-19 test unit the Macross 7 fleet had is not a prototype unit. Real-life aircraft manufacturer often produce fully-functional "production-representative" early units after the actual prototype. According to the notes, the two VF-22Ss were produced under an experimental license at Macross 7 fleet's factory for the specific use of Captain Max Jenius. However, one was <cough>appropriated<cough> for Milia. (The notes don't actually lists the <coughs>, but they do note that some secrecy was involved in assigning Milia one of them.)

Sounds like a blatant maneuver to get something they shouldn’t exactly be able to get their paws on while avoiding a lot of red tape, instead of anything to do with development.

The VF-19S has four laser cannon and one beam gun, not five lasers, in the head unit. Its wing cannons are not described as small-bore.

Conceded.

This was an observation that the VF-19S's FAST Packs do not need to be ejected to use its leg micro-missiles, whereas the (speculative) VF-22S's FAST Packs do need to be ejected to use its ventral micro-missiles.

Then again beyond the FAST pack those leg bays are all the VF-19 has missile wise. If they did the design would be fatally flawed. All you’ve got on the VF-22S is it’d block the internalized form of itself. Which amounts to having magazine 1 & 2 and of course having to unload one and then switch. My point was it only has one set of leg FAST points if it was using the one type of pack it couldn’t be carrying another one.

In the end, we're back with the same conclusions, once we take away the what-if speculations and go with the creators' words: the VF-19S is faster and more maneuverable, while the VF-22S is more massive and has more payload.

And when you look at the potential that comes more into question. Just dropping 210 kilograms had a major influence on the VF-22, but the VF-19 even with lower weight and higher thrust it’s not getting much. Kawamori tweaked stuff it would be balanced, but that doesn’t prevent the potential as well as the given from being looked at does it?

My original contention was it was the Shinsei exclusive engines that gave the VF-19 its main advantage I think we’ve established this, with only the addition of the VF-22S not getting the newest verniers either. In addition they moved the gunpods from external mounts to internal mounts. Sounds to me like some creator person was working hard to hold it back how about you?

Did anyone else notice that in the firing tests the lasers are kind of a redish pink, but the YF-21’s gun pods seem to be firing some sort of blue energy blast? In the rain it’s strafing with both and in the tests we see it being held again as the same. It’s catridge-less because unlike the YF-19 its gun pod is an energy gun. Why were people thinking they weren't there through most of the testing again? From the movie they seem to be basically always there.

[EganLoo]

Don't mind the empty post earlier--I was still composing this post.

[quote name='Briareos9' date='May 13 2005, 04:20 PM'] [quote] The "messing with the arms" upgrade occurred in the YF-19's development stage. By the time the VF-19, they had settled on one type of weapon to install there.[/quote]And who was talking about the VF-19 there especially given the VF-19 doesn’t have guns in the arms?[/quote]

Ah, "the messing with the arms" upgrade quote sounded like it meant "arms" in the weaponry sense, since the YF-19 had upgraded internal weaponry during development. (My earlier response referenced these YF-19 weaponry.) It's not said if the VF-22S's converging energy cannons is an upgrade on the YF-21's Mauler REB-22 laser beam guns, a downgrade (like the control system and wing structure) or a "side-grade."

[quote]
[quote] In any case, this point was brought up because the claim was made that the VF-22S had "more guns pointed several which ways" when it doesn't.[/quote]I made that claim and all you’ve done it brought up a technicality due to the wording. The spirit behind it still stands. Gun coverage on the VF-19 series is good only fore, and behind and above which doesn’t guard its six very well. VF-22S/YF-21 coverage is solid both fore and aft and the mini-missiles help deter anyone coming from any other direction. An enemy fighter will have a bigger problems approaching a VF-22/YF-21.[/quote]

The big difference is that the VF-22S has only one gun that can rotate in Fighter mode, whereas VF-19S has five guns that can be rotated and brought to bear in Fighter mode. That nicely balances out the issue of an attack (or attacks) from any direction (except for ventrally, but the VF-19S, like the VF-22S, also have missiles in the ventral area).

[quote]
[quote] In any case, the engine output is not the only reason that the creators state that the '19 is more maneuverable. Other reasons include the active airflow control units and improved verniers.[/quote]Translation: it has a unit that only works in atmosphere helping it (better for the UNAF, but not the UNS) and the creators (Kawamori) held the VF-22S back from getting the new HMM-7 verniers in addition to improved engines. The VF-22 series still has the potential.[/quote]

Absolutely. But then again, don't all variable fighter designs have potential? One can say that the VF-19S was also "held" back from getting dorsal internal micro missiles and wing cannons that can fire rearward, but--like the VF-22S's lack of high-thrust engines, improved verniers, and active airflow control units--that's all speculation and what-ifs until the creators actually state otherwise.

[quote]
[quote] Actually, it's the other way around.  The VF-22S was introduced because he wanted to use that design after it didn't win Project Supernova. Hefty suspense of disbelief is what all Macross fans should have, especially when it comes to stealth as Kawamori admitted after the fact.[/quote] Who, in reality, determined who won Project Supernova sir? And if he had went the other way what would the VF-19 be doing? You broke SoD, so all I’m doing is pointing out the greater extent of the SoD consequences.[/quote]

We can speculate what would have happened to the YF-19 design if it hadn't won Project Supernova, but we can also speculate what would have happened if neither won and the Ghost trumped the entire project. In the end, it would be more speculations and what-ifs.

[quote]
[quote] The thermonuclear reaction engine is indeed not a magical piece of equipment, but it is not "fuel hungry" or "burn fuel" like conventional engines do. (Incidentally, the creators make a point that fictional Macross thermonuclear reaction is similar but different from real-world nuclear fusion, with a specific point that doesn't need what we now call "nuclear fuel" like D-T.) The point the creators are making is that in atmosphere, the reaction engines doesn't have to worry about "fueling" since it takes what it needs from the atmosphere for effectively limitless range.[/quote] Based on what? The readouts say air is used as coolant/propellant giving it nearly unlimited range, nothing about the power source itself. Just because it’s propellant is air says nothing about its use of fuel. The fusion reaction might be heating the air as it goes past in atmosphere, for example.
[/quote]

This comes from the creators' description of thermonuclear reaction itself, which explains why it is such a revolutionary breakthrough not only for variable fighters, but for mankind in general.

[quote]
[quote] The VF-19 test unit the Macross 7 fleet had is not a prototype unit. Real-life aircraft manufacturer often produce fully-functional "production-representative" early units after the actual prototype. According to the notes, the two VF-22Ss were produced under an experimental license at Macross 7 fleet's factory for the specific use of Captain Max Jenius. However, one was <cough>appropriated<cough> for Milia. (The notes don't actually lists the <coughs>, but they do note that some secrecy was involved in assigning Milia one of them.)[/quote] Sounds like a blatant maneuver to get something they shouldn’t exactly be able to get their paws on while avoiding a lot of red tape, instead of anything to do with development.
[/quote]

Speculation about the reasons aside, it still comes down to more VF-19 units appear in service than VF-22 units, contrary to the original message that implied otherwise.

[quote]
[quote] This was an observation that the VF-19S's FAST Packs do not need to be ejected to use its leg micro-missiles, whereas the (speculative) VF-22S's FAST Packs do need to be ejected to use its ventral micro-missiles.[/quote]Then again beyond the FAST pack those leg bays are all the VF-19 has missile wise. If they did the design would be fatally flawed. All you’ve got on the VF-22S is it’d block the internalized form of itself. Which amounts to having magazine 1 & 2 and of course having to unload one and then switch. My point was it only has one set of leg FAST points if it was using the one type of pack it couldn’t be carrying another one.[/quote]

If one thinks that the VF-19S is "fatally flawed" since it only has internal missile capacity in two sections, than one must also think that the original VF-1, VF-4, VF-11, and several other designs are "fatally flawed" since they only have internal missile capacity in two areas (or none at all). When these general-purpose variable fighters need more missiles, they simply mount on FAST Packs or external missiles.

[quote]
[quote] In the end, we're back with the same conclusions, once we take away the what-if speculations and go with the creators' words: the VF-19S is faster and more maneuverable, while the VF-22S is more massive and has more payload.[/quote] And when you look at the potential that comes more into question. Just dropping 210 kilograms had a major influence on the VF-22, but the VF-19 even with lower weight and higher thrust it’s not getting much. Kawamori tweaked stuff it would be balanced, but that doesn’t prevent the potential as well as the given from being looked at does it?
[/quote]

Potential is another word for "if only I had created this story ..." There's nothing wrong with that. It's just that it's hard to discuss what-ifs without going into hypotheticals and have few (if any) ground rules--unlike discussing what actually is in the original story.

[quote]
Did anyone else notice that in the firing tests the lasers are kind of a redish pink, but the YF-21’s gun pods seem to be firing some sort of blue energy blast?  In the rain it’s strafing with both and in the tests we see it being held again as the same.  It’s catridge-less because unlike the YF-19 its gun pod is an energy gun.  Why were people thinking they weren't there through most of the testing again?  From the movie they seem to be basically always there. [/quote]

The design notes do mention that the YF-21's gun pod is called "cartridge-less" because its ammo are caseless (hence no ejection port), not because it is an energy gun.

Edited by EganLoo, 13 May 2005 - 04:43 PM.

[Briareos9]

dd? Sorry not familiar with that one.

Okay I messed up, the built in guns are the same color, but the gunpods are what Guld openned up with Isamu with. I can only guess the others are so kind of targetting thing for testing purposes as it's not seen again. They're under the nacelles and the same color energy blast. Talk about purposefully making it it hard to tell, whether they're there or not.

[Zentrandude]

wow never saw egan post so much in a single day.

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

wow this is very very informative. Egan thanks for taking the time to post here!! Learned so much about the 19 and 22 here!

[AlphaHX]

wow never saw egan post so much in a single day.

I didnt even know he had an account here!

Nice job on the Macross Compendium Egan. Good stuff.