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VF-19 vs VF-22


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Poll: Do you prefer the features of the (121 member(s) have cast votes)

Do you prefer the features of the

  1. VF-19 series (61 votes [54.46%])

    Percentage of vote: 54.46%

  2. VF-22S (51 votes [45.54%])

    Percentage of vote: 45.54%

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#71 Zentrandude

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Posted 18 May 2005 - 05:16 PM

*imagines yoda with blonde hair and trying to grope every lady in sight*

#72 JB0

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Posted 18 May 2005 - 05:44 PM

*imagines yoda with blonde hair and trying to grope every lady in sight*

"Feel my walking stick you will, yes..."

#73 azrael

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Posted 18 May 2005 - 11:10 PM

Ah, heck. Only way a fighter-mounted PPB is really viable IMO is with automated barrier tracking anyways. Never mind.

If you face the infamous missile storm, and your VF only can generate.. maybe 15-20 barrier discs (lets say each can only cover an area with a 3..3.5 ft diameter) at maximum power, I don't know if doing it manual or computer-control with a flood of missiles coming would be a good idea. Heck, I would just launch decoys and run if that was coming at me. ;) Forget the PPB, must go faster.

"Feel my walking stick you will, yes..."

:blink: :lol:

#74 1/1 LowViz Lurker

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Posted 19 May 2005 - 03:18 AM

If you face the infamous missile storm, and your VF only can generate.. maybe 15-20 barrier discs (lets say each can only cover an area with a 3..3.5 ft diameter) at maximum power, I don't know if doing it manual or computer-control with a flood of missiles coming would be a good idea. Heck, I would just launch decoys and run if that was coming at me.  Forget the PPB, must go faster.


That's what Dyson did when guld went psycho and had his flashback.

Not as good as max's "fly right into the swarm (rather than away from) with a slower vf1 and dodge milia's missiles swarm in SDF: macross", but good enough.

This is why I think if the vf22 had that BCS yf21 system, average pilots might stand a better chance because they could dodge easier. Too bad it was taken out.

If I had it my way I would continue research into making full barriers for all valks like the sdf1 used in the tv series to beat the zentradi commander, and how the afos had that purple shield. This way you could send a slow GBP-equiped valk into a battlefield without support, and when a swarm would come, instead of wasting the missiles to intercept the enemies missiles, or shooting them down with the gunpod the way roy does, you just turn on the full barrier to absorb thier swarm, then let loose with your own missiles to do more damage to the enemy. Won't matter what angle it hits you since it offers full coverage. Whatever failures in the barrier to absorb everything, the GBP armor will absorb the damage and you can eject it later. (I just find it hard to believe people are going to use a bullet proof shield to block machinegun fire and missiles the way basara does since it won't cover everything. This is why dodging should wiegh in heavily and the reaction speed and manueverability of yf21 was so cool)

See but the problem with macross is that enemies have better stuff, and can escape. (the constant folding out of the battlefield in macross 7 for example.) To prevent all this: What they need are covert teams that can avoid detection and sneak aboard the enemy ships, and blow them from within and escape before the enemy knows anything. This way, if the enemy tries to fold out it brings your guys with it.

A team might consist of a slower heavy weapon valk with gbp and explosives, a fast agile one with light weapons and strong up-close ability,(a master at using pinpoint barrier manuevers and the speediest) a machine-gun valk, and maybe a sniperish long range valk. This way as a team they cover all thier bases and because it is a small group it lessens chances of being noticed. Before you grumble about "breeding weakness" these guys are the best of the best and each member will have exceptional abilities at ALL roles, (they can switch to a different role if one is hurt, and the replacement can still outclass even good enemy soldiers in that area) ..but ALSO masters at what they specialise in.

The thing I liked about the zentradi pods is that they had a variety of ways of scheming and attacking in the tv series. And not all of them carried the same weapons. Some had light weapons, others had heavy ones, some had missiles, some were just scouts etc. The leaders looked like they have more firepower and better tech. And not just that but they used sneaky tactics like using thier environment to its advantage. (eg in bye bye mars when they hid in the ground or in the episode where they submerged in the water, or snuck down to earth while diverting attention to space.)

Edited by 1/1 LowViz Lurker, 19 May 2005 - 03:54 AM.


#75 Final Vegeta

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Posted 19 May 2005 - 05:18 AM

If I had it my way I would continue research into making full barriers for all valks like the sdf1 used in the tv series to beat the zentradi commander, and how the afos had that purple shield.

For that within atmosphere I think you need an antigravity engine for valks. Or maybe it would be good as a last resort device, although chaff/flares come cheaper.

a sniperish long range valk

I dunno. I don't think the sniper concept, while fascinating in itself, is that scalable to mecha (where it would be best described as "high precision artillery"). Mecha have guns that are already like tank guns, the range is already great within visual range and there are even missiles for good measure. Beside this, in Macross Valkyries use to travel very fast (Fighter mode) and have stealth capabilities, so long range combat is expected to be rare.

Anyway, the idea of a mecha special force (for istance, Gundam Wing) sounds kinda silly to me. That way if they fought together everyone but one mecha would be always out of their field of combat.

FV

Edited by Final Vegeta, 19 May 2005 - 05:29 AM.


#76 Zentrandude

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Posted 19 May 2005 - 05:29 AM

vf-17 is about closest to a sniper valk. its stealthy and it has that beam insert/magazine/battery/emitter? for a one shot kill.

A sniper valk would be a nice part of a fleet, one a lone sniper hide on an asteroid and take commanders as they get near maybe also help with recon to locate more targets.

#77 Final Vegeta

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Posted 19 May 2005 - 06:09 AM

vf-17 is about closest to a sniper valk. its stealthy and it has that beam insert/magazine/battery/emitter? for a one shot kill.

At the end it becomes more a matter of punch than of long range precision. Gigile used his blaster to take down a spaceship, while Isamu tested YF-19's blaster on a Monster. While this kind of beam weapon can be useful in special cases (among which there is sniping), it doesn't have a good rate of fire for a frantic combat. I think it should be intended more for sniping of more armored targets.

Another difference in mecha combat is that unlike humans a mecha can move very fast. Humans under fire need to move from cover to cover while trying to get near, whereas a mecha can try to use its sheer speed to evade fire. An example of this is in Macross Zero, where Roy could be easily pinpointed by Ivanov through IR vision.

A sniper valk would be a nice part of a fleet, one a lone sniper hide on an asteroid and take commanders as they get near maybe also help with recon to locate more targets.

If you want reconnaisance then is best to use proper reconnaisance units with radome and such. Btw, while in anime is common, I don't think commanders and grunt units should be distinguished ;)

FV

#78 Zentrandude

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Posted 19 May 2005 - 06:16 AM

its for helping the recon units. much like the kids who reported to the guys that the us was comming in blackhawk down. you still have proper recon units but they would be either guarded and inside the fleet or outside the battle with guards that arent not in the battlefield fighting.

If you have a valk hiding on an asteroid thats just one valk instead of a small squad.

#79 JB0

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Posted 19 May 2005 - 08:24 AM

Ah, heck. Only way a fighter-mounted PPB is really viable IMO is with automated barrier tracking anyways. Never mind.

If you face the infamous missile storm, and your VF only can generate.. maybe 15-20 barrier discs (lets say each can only cover an area with a 3..3.5 ft diameter) at maximum power, I don't know if doing it manual or computer-control with a flood of missiles coming would be a good idea. Heck, I would just launch decoys and run if that was coming at me. ;) Forget the PPB, must go faster.

"Feel my walking stick you will, yes..."

:blink: :lol:

Yah. I have my doubts about PPB usability against missiles. With luck, your disk is wide enough to block the blast from the impact missile, and the missiles coming in behind the lead one(which the computer blocked) are blasted by the first one exploding.

I was assuming a 3-disk system, really.
15-20, just set disks resting on several key strategic areas and to heck with it.

#80 JB0

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Posted 19 May 2005 - 08:28 AM

If you face the infamous missile storm, and your VF only can generate.. maybe 15-20 barrier discs (lets say each can only cover an area with a 3..3.5 ft diameter) at maximum power, I don't know if doing it manual or computer-control with a flood of missiles coming would be a good idea. Heck, I would just launch decoys and run if that was coming at me.  Forget the PPB, must go faster.


That's what Dyson did when guld went psycho and had his flashback.

Not as good as max's "fly right into the swarm (rather than away from) with a slower vf1 and dodge milia's missiles swarm in SDF: macross", but good enough.

This is why I think if the vf22 had that BCS yf21 system, average pilots might stand a better chance because they could dodge easier. Too bad it was taken out.

And can you IMAGINE what a pilot like Max would get out of it?
Be like a god of death walking into the battlefield.

If I had it my way I would continue research into making full barriers for all valks like the sdf1 used in the tv series to beat the zentradi commander, and how the afos had that purple shield. This way you could send a slow GBP-equiped valk into a battlefield without support, and when a swarm would come, instead of wasting the missiles to intercept the enemies missiles, or shooting them down with the gunpod the way roy does, you just turn on the full barrier to absorb thier swarm, then let loose with your own missiles to do more damage to the enemy. Won't matter what angle it hits you since it offers full coverage. Whatever failures in the barrier to absorb everything, the GBP armor will absorb the damage and you can eject it later.

Problem is omnidirectional barriers have a nasty tendancy to go nuclear when they fail. This isn't good for your wingmates.

(I just find it hard to believe people are going to use a bullet proof shield to block machinegun fire and missiles the way basara does since it won't cover everything. This is why dodging should wiegh in heavily and the reaction speed and manueverability of yf21 was so cool)

Thought Basara put PPB disks on his shield.
Either way...

#81 azrael

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Posted 19 May 2005 - 11:07 AM

I was assuming a 3-disk system, really.
15-20, just set disks resting on several key strategic areas and to heck with it.

Although, you have to hope the splash damage from those other missiles don't do much damage. It's like wearing protective gear. Let's say you wear the knee pads, elbow pads, helmet, and gloves (ah heck, let's throw in the crotch guard) and those would be like your PPB system. Let's say a missile storm is like a Homer Simpson-style injury. Obviously you can't protect it all and something is going to affect another and we have a cascading injury effect.

Problem is omnidirectional barriers have a nasty tendancy to go nuclear when they fail. This isn't good for your wingmates.

It's not good for anybody in the blast radius. Imagine you and your wingmen pinned down in an area like...<insert financial district/busy area of your city here>. That part of the city plus anybody left there, is going to be gone if a ODB system overloads.

#82 Lightning

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Posted 19 May 2005 - 11:41 AM

I want my VF-4X Dammit!!!

#83 1/1 LowViz Lurker

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Posted 19 May 2005 - 04:45 PM

Well the idea is that when that happens, (barrier overload) your wingmates also have omnidirectional barriers that go off automatically when yours is about to explode, as a way to protect them. They just keep a certain distance. heh

If they could somehow make one that doeasn't go off with more research, (ie the sdf 1 got it working properly by the time they killed the zentradi supreme commander - why did it work here? Perhaps like the antigrav generator they finally figured out ways to make it work over time?) then maybe they could avoid that prob.

Once an enemy has finished unloading its swarm, it only has its guns. You only need the barrier for short time until you can shed the armor and be fast and manueverable again.

Beside this, in Macross Valkyries use to travel very fast (Fighter mode) and have stealth capabilities, so long range combat is expected to be rare.


Ah but it would be useful inside an enemy ship where there is limited space and flying will get you noticed in fighter mode if you are not careful. You are not just there to combat enemies and kill them but to complete a specific task to have a succesful mission. (ie being able to sneak into an area that is well-guarded and a certain thing is well hidden enough that you need to see it first. You have no interest in killing every enemy since you probably don't have enough ammo to take them all on anyway) A ghost drone would be useless here since it only fights, doesn't think about the situation it is in.

Sometimes flying around in fighter is dangerous since too much speed can result in crashing into stuff. I'm thinking like a mini-main gun type weapon but focused onto a small spot. You don't want to use missiles because say for example in a hostage situation the friendly vf1 might get hurt. You want precision and long range but not the recoil of a machine gun spoiling things. (see early episode of macross where hikaru is shooting an enemy pod and the shots go all over the place on its body rather than on a specific area. A sniper might only want to hit a part of the leg to disable the machine, not blow up the whole pod.)

Pretty much anytime the good guys managed to sneak onboard a zentradi ship they switched to battroid mode so they could see wtf they were looking at by scanning the area and sneak around. If they only had fighter mode they'd be banging into walls and stuff and attracting attention unless they needed that speed as a quick getaway once they were seen. Also if they are moving slowly and can't see well it might increase thier accuracy because the area might be full of obstructions and obstacles that rushing through like rambo in fighter mode would be reckless. This is why in macross zero the variability of the valk was so important. Sometimes sneaking in robot or gerwalk mode and hiding in the environemnt can help you get close to the enemy or gain an element of surprise. (ie shin's ground attack earning him a free hit on nora from behind the trees when he was in gerwalk)

Edited by 1/1 LowViz Lurker, 19 May 2005 - 05:24 PM.


#84 JB0

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Posted 19 May 2005 - 11:49 PM

I was assuming a 3-disk system, really.
15-20, just set disks resting on several key strategic areas and to heck with it.

Although, you have to hope the splash damage from those other missiles don't do much damage. It's like wearing protective gear. Let's say you wear the knee pads, elbow pads, helmet, and gloves (ah heck, let's throw in the crotch guard) and those would be like your PPB system. Let's say a missile storm is like a Homer Simpson-style injury. Obviously you can't protect it all and something is going to affect another and we have a cascading injury effect.

Yah. I was thinking the only way it'd REALLY be useful is if the disks "cupped" upwards around the missile. Which there's no evidence they can do.



Problem is omnidirectional barriers have a nasty tendancy to go nuclear when they fail. This isn't good for your wingmates.

It's not good for anybody in the blast radius. Imagine you and your wingmen pinned down in an area like...<insert financial district/busy area of your city here>. That part of the city plus anybody left there, is going to be gone if a ODB system overloads.

Yes. I was understating the issue somewhat, as well as assuming space battle.

#85 JB0

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Posted 19 May 2005 - 11:56 PM

Well the idea is that when that happens, (barrier overload) your wingmates also have omnidirectional barriers that go off automatically when yours is about to explode, as a way to protect them. They just keep a certain distance. heh

And you get fried by their barriers. Yay!


If they could somehow make one that doeasn't go off with more research, (ie the sdf 1 got it working properly by the time they killed the zentradi supreme commander - why did it work here? Perhaps like the antigrav generator they finally figured out ways to make it work over time?) then maybe they could avoid that prob.

I don't think it WAS non-explosive at the end. There were just so many other explosions going off at the time that it didn't matter.

If I recall, the issue was ultimately that the omnidirectional barrier absorbed energy when hit, and didn't have a safe way to shed it during combat. And when it overloaded, the barrier shed everything all at once.
...
Hmm, if you could control the discharge, you'd have a barrier-powered cannon...

#86 1/1 LowViz Lurker

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Posted 20 May 2005 - 02:30 AM

Well they turn the barrier off before it blows and rely on pinpoint when it reaches a certain limit.

Remember kamjins first attacks were successfully absorbed. It was only when he kept up the attacks constantly and the sdf1 did nothing but sit there and the barrier was abused that it lead to an overload. (the valk will be moving while the barrier is on unlike the sdf1) It won't happen all the time. With more research and time finding ways to make it safe (like antigrav) it will be worth it.

The reason why all the problems with the main gun going off by itself, the antigrav generators going off, and the fold drives disapearing was because the ship was untested, scientists were still halfway trying to reverse engineer things and the zentradi arrived early. Humans needed more time to figure it all out.

Now fast forward in time, they have ironed out the glitches in the AG and can use them properly, we now see portable pin point barriers, and folding isn't such a bitch anymore leaving people stranded in the middle of nowhere. What was unsafe before becomes controlled later. What mistakes were made in the past they can learn from in the future with controlled testing. (ie global's accidently folding a part of earth with the sdf1)

And you get fried by their barriers. Yay!


Space is vast. Keep a certain distance should work since the explosion won't be as massive as the sdf1's barrier overload was. (I seem to remember vf1's being fast enough to clear the area before the big sdf1 barrier explosion went off, so with the speed of newer valks it isn't such a huge demand for them to haul ass to a safe distance with a smaller scale explosion)

Or just group all the fighters together inside the barrier at the centre where it is safe. :D (maybe they could all dock together and share the load? Each one having a full barrier that acts as backup that gets used before the first one reaches its limit? It's only a qrau attacking FFS) If needs be, have it so your fighters fold to the location after the explosion rather than be so near to the GBP valk. You wouldn't want them to get near the GBP anyway when it unleashes all it's missiles. As I recall Hikaru took on the zentradi scout ship all by himself with no help from wingmates or drones or anything. So when it goes off, the enemy will be the one to take the damage.

It seems to me the Protodevlin really abused the idea of folding away from the battle field and even folding explosives to new locations once those explosives were planted. It seems to me they'd need to seriously research something like a safe full barrier in the future in case all sorts of terrorist bombers break through defenses and plant bombs in unprotected areas through folding in like that. The barriers would offer security if the target the enemy was trying to destroy was strategically important and the drones which spotted the enemy with the bombs alerted people to the danger first so they could be able to turn it on in time. All they'd need to do is to plan how far apart these important areas should be spaced apart in case of an emergency when the barriers did overload.

When the bomb goes off, the barrier would protect the important target. If it overloads because there were a series of bombs, the space between each protected area will be far enough that it won't destroy other things once the barrier overloads because the radius isn't large enough.

Edited by 1/1 LowViz Lurker, 20 May 2005 - 03:29 AM.


#87 Final Vegeta

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Posted 20 May 2005 - 03:57 AM

Beside this, in Macross Valkyries use to travel very fast (Fighter mode) and have stealth capabilities, so long range combat is expected to be rare.

Ah but it would be useful inside an enemy ship where there is limited space and flying will get you noticed in fighter mode if you are not careful.

How can you expect long range combat inside an enemy ship? :P :P :P
Do you think they house a "long range combat training area"?

A sniper might only want to hit a part of the leg to disable the machine, not blow up the whole pod.

But the Zentradi inside can still fight, so it's unlikely the sniper would want anything but a kill. It's like the overlord that tells all his evil plan to the hero before killing him.

FV

#88 JB0

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Posted 20 May 2005 - 04:24 PM

Well they turn the barrier off before it blows and rely on pinpoint when it reaches a certain limit.

Remember kamjins first attacks were successfully absorbed. It was only when he kept up the attacks constantly and the sdf1 did nothing but sit there and the barrier was abused that it lead to an overload. (the valk will be moving while the barrier is on unlike the sdf1) It won't happen all the time. With more research and time finding ways to make it safe (like antigrav) it will be worth it.

Provided the overload isn't an unavoidable flaw in the design.

The reason why all the problems with the main gun going off by itself, the antigrav generators going off, and the fold drives disapearing was because the ship was untested, scientists were still halfway trying to reverse engineer things and the zentradi arrived early. Humans needed more time to figure it all out.

The main gun was programmed by the supervision army to go off. not our fault.

If I recall, the antigrav and fold generator issues were supposed to be due to the improper firing of the cannon, not anything we did to them.
The antigravs and fold generators were original equipment, not reverse-engineered replacements.


Now fast forward in time, they have ironed out the glitches in the AG and can use them properly, we now see portable pin point barriers, and folding isn't such a bitch anymore leaving people stranded in the middle of nowhere. What was unsafe before becomes controlled later.

It was safe before. The zentradi, supervision army, and protoculture used the devices for millenia.


And you get fried by their barriers. Yay!


Space is vast. Keep a certain distance should work since the explosion won't be as massive as the sdf1's barrier overload was. (I seem to remember vf1's being fast enough to clear the area before the big sdf1 barrier explosion went off, so with the speed of newer valks it isn't such a huge demand for them to haul ass to a safe distance with a smaller scale explosion)

Yah. I'm being overly cynical here, in retrospect.
Among other things, a VF barrier can't absorb as much as a ship-sized version. That greatly limits the potential damage of a discharge. And due to the rapid spread, a VF at anythign mroe than "point blank" range will absorb but a tiny fraction of what their barrier can take.

#89 grss1982

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Posted 20 May 2005 - 07:30 PM

Sometimes sneaking in robot or gerwalk mode and hiding in the environemnt can help you get close to the enemy or gain an element of surprise. (ie shin's ground attack earning him a free hit on nora from behind the trees when he was in gerwalk)

another classic example of this blending in the environment in macross zero is when DD hides in the mountain/canyon/crevice then extends his sv-51's head to shot at roy. i think :unsure:

#90 1/1 LowViz Lurker

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Posted 21 May 2005 - 03:12 AM

How can you expect long range combat inside an enemy ship?   
Do you think they house a "long range combat training area"?


The team wouldn't have to use it inside but possibly outside when they are trying to escape from the enemy and have retrived the thing they came for, but there are people now chasing them so having one would be handier than gunpod. And if no long range combat is necessary they don't use a long range specialist. Simple. Team members are hand-picked and equiped with the weapons for the task depending on the mission requirment. I would think the government has enough money to fund the stuff due to needing specialists just based on the idea that they are now the leaders of the universe and have defeated the protodevlin. Thier main enemies would be anti-un and rebel zentradi. (some friendly zentradi might even protest the government to not kill them, pleading to "give them a chance and not be brutal and controlling. They are our zentradi brothers" :D Given your guys are far more skilled you wouldn't want to appear too mean and insensitive and unforgiving in front of your own people now, would you? :D)

In the instance where hiding and precision indoors is necessary:

eg take a band of giant zentradi terrorists who have taken hostage a VIP (say a macronised captain global or one of max's daughters from macross 7 or something) the extra precision a sniper weapons has at medium to long distance makes DAMN SURE that not a single bullet hits Max's daughter in the head. The guy who has the hostage is using her body as cover and the valk with the sniper weapon is hiding somewhere waiting for a clear head shot at the giant terorrist. With a machine gun gunpod, it would be stupid to risk blowing off the innocent victim into little bits with you heavy machine gun fire, right? Not just that but what if you are in a sensitive area that risks blowing something up that needs to remain undamaged?

There are many situations that could require a precision sniper weapon, use you imagination. This is why your team has to go in silently because once the enemy do know what your plan is, they will heighten thier alert status and send every soldier to search for you. You won't be able to fight your way out because it is heavily-guarded or it would make your task much more difficult.

Also there could be political reasons for why some mission must go on in secret and you need to sneak. (maybe the terrorist knows something that the government want to keep secret and if the government announces the situation to thier own, it will look bad on them, thus they call on a team of elite soldiers who have a low failure rate to complete this in silence. The terrorist might have some piece of evidence that they want to use as leverage and until they are dead it is not safe to announce what you are planning to anyone.)

But the Zentradi inside can still fight, so it's unlikely the sniper would want anything but a kill. It's like the overlord that tells all his evil plan to the hero before killing him.


Nah like I mention, there are many uses for a precision weapon over one that only sprays an area generally and it usually involves sensitive situations where there are specific mission objectives and explicit instructions on what you are NOT ALLOWED to do to fullfill the objective. For example you are to kill the leader, but don't kill the civilians or scientists who you might need alive which the leader keeps close by. That example was just one: to disable rather than kill the person inside. (maybe you are chasing an enemy who is very important that needs to be taken for questioning for more information? Thier death might mean you fail because of the information that person has that your side wants/needs) Remember that part in sdf:macross when milia was encouraging max to not hit the pods to kll the pilot's inside? (not all pilots have his accuracy and sharp-shooting ability)

Why did max want to go to all the trouble to only hit the weak point? Because there might be a good reason to show that they don't necessarily want to kill people, just destroy the weapon to stop them. Also in a what-if scenario: a civilian might have been inside captured by enemies. In the tv series the zentradi played the game fair but that doesn't mean they couldn't have learned a few tricks from us humans in future. (hostage taking, hiding behind sensisitve targets which they know we wouldn't want to harm etc) In fact kamjin takes minmay hostage in one episode so his demands are met. In the real world you wouldn't want to announce that you've got guys heading into to rescue would you? You'd just do it silently.

A computer may not distinguish between two closely held together targets, so a human may be necessary. And a ghost as I mentioned might be too clumsy and stupid to be able to make certain decisions. The target could be moving around constantly and keeping the hostage close to its body that it would be too risky to spray with maching gun fire. What if the machine gun fire alerts them and the enemy kills the innocents or destroys the secret project they were working on because they know your coming? You'd want the first shot to count because it is the one that will determine mission success and mission failure. Of course once you have fullfilled your objectives, your team can then let loose with full-on heavy weapons, machine guns, missiles and bombs to blow the place up, before leaving, but until then you must go in and aproach the mission with caution due to the sensitivity of the situation.

In an outdoor situation: Remember when kamjin's team in the tv series was taken out by those monsters hiding on the cliff? (this was when he was lured out from his hiding spot) I often wonder what would it have been like if one of those mechs had minmay in it? Using monsters would risk killing people you don't want dead. But with a long range weapon that only hits a specific point it would make the job easier, disabling only the weapons of the enemy and not risk endangering the victim. Now just exchange "monsters in hiding" for "valks in hiding with a special weapon" and there's a use there.

.....Aaaaaannnywaayy....., as UN SPACY has no more enemies to fight, I doubt advancing thier weapons anymore will make much difference since nobody can take them on which is probably why they don't need yf21 style improvments. They can become complacent like the government in macross II and rely on old tech and it wouldn't make much difference.

Edited by 1/1 LowViz Lurker, 21 May 2005 - 03:55 AM.


#91 1/1 LowViz Lurker

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Posted 21 May 2005 - 04:10 AM

If I recall, the antigrav and fold generator issues were supposed to be due to the improper firing of the cannon, not anything we did to them.
The antigravs and fold generators were original equipment, not reverse-engineered replacements.


It was safe before. The zentradi, supervision army, and protoculture used the devices for millenia.


I thought that the ASS ship was damaged and they needed to understand it all (reverse engineer) to get it working and to repair it? (they mentioned using "recycled parts" I think) The humans may not have understood how the stuff worked so they needed a working model for themselves to recreate the effects? Otherwise why were they so surprised that thier ships could float in the air in macross zero? Could it have been the first time both sides began to experience a working AG? I assumed it was that they may have theorised but not tested the ASS. The mayor I recall pleaded Global to lift off from earth because he was scared the aliens might attack earth instead of the ship only, but global mentioned it was an "untested ship" and inexperienced crew. (and shammy was talking about how they were really going to go into space for the first time or something, or maybe I recall wrong)

To the zentradi none of it had to be understood because they were dumb, weren't they? If something got wrecked it was never repaired or maintained and I always thought they relied on factories just building new ones. As warriors, they didn't need to distract themselves with the workings of the machines (because war was all they could think of and they were uncultered, barbarian, philistines) so we didn't see any maintanenece/repair crew on enemy ships when a mech got damaged like we did with the macross. (i think - that is my assumption anyway :D)

The one exception I think was when kamjin learnt from humans (repairing?) and started to repair his own ship which would ultimately be used in the final attack on the sdf1 in the tv series. Ordinarily I would think the average zentradi grunt wouldn't have done that because fighting was more exciting.

Edited by 1/1 LowViz Lurker, 21 May 2005 - 04:45 AM.


#92 Lightning

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Posted 21 May 2005 - 01:35 PM

but nuking things is SO much more fun....

#93 JB0

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Posted 21 May 2005 - 04:35 PM

If I recall, the antigrav and fold generator issues were supposed to be due to the improper firing of the cannon, not anything we did to them.
The antigravs and fold generators were original equipment, not reverse-engineered replacements.


It was safe before. The zentradi, supervision army, and protoculture used the devices for millenia.


I thought that the ASS ship was damaged and they needed to understand it all (reverse engineer) to get it working and to repair it? (they mentioned using "recycled parts" I think)

Parts of it needed to be understood. Others, not so much.
And the stuff that got repaired was likely in good enough shape that only a few small patches were needed.
Otherwise it'd be like someone running up, dumping a pile of car parts in front of you, and saying "fix it." (I'm going to assume you don't rebuild engines for a living, because it makes the metaphor easier)


I think reverse-enginneering had more to do with duplicating it than fixing it.


The humans may not have understood how the stuff worked so they needed a working model for themselves to recreate the effects?

But they may as well put the originals back. And I suspect that they only allowed non-destructive studies, or studies on spare parts.

Wouldn't do to bust your only microfusion generator/convergent-energy cannon/other cool piece of overtech without having the capability of making a replacement.

Otherwise why were they so surprised that thier ships could float in the air in macross zero? Could it have been the first time both sides began to experience a working AG?

*makes note to watch Mac0 again*
Can't place the scene in question, but it's likely.



I assumed it was that they may have theorised but not tested the ASS. The mayor I recall pleaded Global to lift off from earth because he was scared the aliens might attack earth instead of the ship only, but global mentioned it was an "untested ship" and inexperienced crew. (and shammy was talking about how they were really going to go into space for the first time or something, or maybe I recall wrong)

That's how I remember it. They were only just ready to launch the Macross on it's shakedown cruise when the Zentradi showed up.


But I think they pegged the malfunctions on the unplanned main cannon firing in Global Report. I'd have to check to be sure.
...
Either way, that unplanned firing is evidence they were recycling parts. The ship's computer was of alien origin and still had the original code in it.

To the zentradi none of it had to be understood because they were dumb, weren't they? If something got wrecked it was never repaired or maintained and I always thought they relied on factories just building new ones. As warriors, they didn't need to distract themselves with the workings of the machines (because war was all they could think of and they were uncultered, barbarian, philistines) so we didn't see any maintanenece/repair crew on enemy ships when a mech got damaged like we did with the macross. (i think - that is my assumption anyway :D)

As I understand things, yeah.
Their version of repair work was apparently sending in a guy with a broom to remove the glass shards from Breetai's bridge.

But they still made extensive use of fold generators and antigravs, demonstrating the safety of the technology.

#94 twich

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 01:36 PM

Rather than start a new topic, thought I would just add to this one. I have been debating in my head, a "what if" sort of scenario. What if the YF-21 Won the Project SuperNova? What variants would we see of a Vf-21/22? If we follow Macross Frontier with variants, we could see:
Vf-21/22A- single head laser like current design that we know.
VF-21/22B- 2 seats, single head laser.
Vf-21/22F- single seat, 2 additional head lasers for a total of 3
VF-21/22G- single seat, specialty head for sniping/sniper rifle gunpod
VF-21/22S- single seat with 4 additional head lasers for a total of 5.
RVF-21/22- single or dual seats with radar dish/electronic warfare gear.

I have always wondered this and I am curious about others thoughts.
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#95 Seto Kaiba

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 02:20 PM

Rather than start a new topic, thought I would just add to this one. I have been debating in my head, a "what if" sort of scenario. What if the YF-21 Won the Project SuperNova? What variants would we see of a Vf-21/22? If we follow Macross Frontier with variants, we could see:

An interesting thought... tho I can't imagine there would've been all that many variants of it, since the VF-22's primary focus was being as stealthy as humanly (robot-ly?) possible. IIRC, the VF-19 ended up with as many variants as it did because the initial mass production type (the VF-19A and -C) were all-regime versions that had some stability and control issues, while the second mass production type (the VF-19E?, -F, and -S) addressed that stability and control problem by simplifying the airframe design and changing the engine, while also optimizing it for use in space. There is a mention (in YF-24 material) of control issues under high g-force loads for the VF-22, so it's possible that there might've been a similar second production unit that addressed those problems. I admit, I can't really see the VF-22 with multiple head laser configurations like the VF-19's. Can't really see it with a radome either (the radome-equipped VF-19s in Master File looked goofy, IMO), and the RVF- designation seems to be something relatively recent in Macross Frontier's era (apart from a dubious variant in the VF-19 Master File).

I could maybe see an -A/-B early type and -F/-S late type... not sure about a designated marksman version or a recon model. Considering what it's modeled on, maybe also a bomber type (e.g. the VB-171) along the lines of that "Jagdvogel" type in Model Graphix?

#96 twich

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 03:46 PM

I would tend to agree that I would not see a sniper version of the VF-22 either, as I can't really see any transformable jet lumbering around a rifle that is as long as it is. I don't know about a radar dish version or another type of electronic warfare type, but I was just trying to throw out terms that would equate to versions that we are familiar with, ala Macross Frontier. I don't know why, but I just can't understand the logic of a step backwards that was taken with the VF-25 with the elimination of internal missile launchers that both the YF-19 and YF-21 enjoyed. Since we don't have a lot of information on the VF-24, but it is hinted that it is more powerful than the VF-25 because of earth's hesitation of giving colony forces equal technology to what earth has in its' arsenal. I understand that the creators want to have new mecha to go along with each new series, and the VF-19/VF-22S are associated with Macross Plus/7, but the backstory of the reasoning behind the VF-171 just is beyond me. Anyways, I am getting a little off topic here.
I can see the VF-21/22 with multiple head lasers just as the VF-19E/P/Kai/S enjoy, I think it would be quite easy to incorporate in the design and would give the VF-22S a reason to have the "S" designation other than being a "Special Operations Fighter". The VF-17 had 2 and 4 headlasers, I could see that given the "what if" scenario, the VF-21/22 eliminating or reducing the number of gunpods to just 1, and making the wrist lasers the primary weapon system and beefing up the power. As was stated earlier in this thread, the YF-21/VF-22S has not 1, but 2 shields that can have PPB, has those lovely arm lasers and has the Inertial Vector Control system that gives it a leg up on reducing the "G-Load" on the pilot before the implimentation of ISC and Ex-Gears.
I just think that being in 2 anime's and having as much going for it as we have seen in those anime's, the YF-21/VF-22S really gets short changed in the continuity and I think that is a real shame. I love the YF-19, I have the YF-19 Bird of Prey from Yamato and it is probably my favorite toy that I have collected so far, but I think that my VF-22S Milia toy gets the short end of the stick and I see so much potential in the design when I am holding and looking at the toy in a side by side comparison of the 2 designs.
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#97 Seto Kaiba

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 04:57 PM

I would tend to agree that I would not see a sniper version of the VF-22 either, as I can't really see any transformable jet lumbering around a rifle that is as long as it is.

Hrm... in that case, we'd better hide the VF-4ST, VF-11C w/ Armored Pack, YF-27-5, and VF-27...



I don't know why, but I just can't understand the logic of a step backwards that was taken with the VF-25 with the elimination of internal missile launchers that both the YF-19 and YF-21 enjoyed. [...] I understand that the creators want to have new mecha to go along with each new series, and the VF-19/VF-22S are associated with Macross Plus/7, but the backstory of the reasoning behind the VF-171 just is beyond me.

Wasn't the creator rationale for the VF-171 something along the lines of the VF-19 looking too much like a main character mecha?

Anyway... I'm not entirely thrilled with some of the retro aspects of the VF-25 either, but the logic behind the in-universe adoption of the VF-171 is at least halfway sensible, so it doesn't bother me overmuch. (It helps that I kind of like the VF-171 design, but then I have a history of being fond of the underdog designs, so make of that what you will. :lol: )



I can see the VF-21/22 with multiple head lasers just as the VF-19E/P/Kai/S enjoy, I think it would be quite easy to incorporate in the design and would give the VF-22S a reason to have the "S" designation other than being a "Special Operations Fighter". The VF-17 had 2 and 4 headlasers,

It might just be me overthinking it or something, but I don't really see the point in the multiple rear-facing head lasers. When some can't rotate theirs forward (the VF-19F) and others just don't use 'em anymore, why bother having more than the one fixed cannon you'd need for defense? I liked the "one variant fits all" approach the VF-11 and VF-2SS had, rather than having special and distinctive variants for junior and senior officers. (There's nothing terribly safe or practical about making it obvious you're the officer in charge when you're on the battlefield, it just makes you a bigger target.)

So, as I mentioned before, I could see a couple different variants... but because the laser/beam gun on the head is a fixed mount, I can't really see a plethora of alternate head gun configurations.



I just think that being in 2 anime's and having as much going for it as we have seen in those anime's, the YF-21/VF-22S really gets short changed in the continuity and I think that is a real shame.

Well, it didn't get shortchanged that badly... I mean, it was in Macross 7's series, the Encore episodes, the Macross 7 "movie", Dynamite 7, the D7 manga, the VF-X games, and even Macross the Ride. It might not grab the spotlight a lot, but it's got a pretty robust list of appearances.

#98 Graham

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 06:00 PM

Well, it didn't get shortchanged that badly... I mean, it was in Macross 7's series, the Encore episodes, the Macross 7 "movie", Dynamite 7, the D7 manga, the VF-X games, and even Macross the Ride. It might not grab the spotlight a lot, but it's got a pretty robust list of appearances.


Don't forget the VF-22S was featured in the three PSP games as well (MAF, MUF & MTF).

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#99 VF5SS

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 06:12 PM

Attached File  yf21m3.jpg   131.13KB   5 downloads

It's a hidden unit in M3 too

They didn't make the backpack collapse so it looks a little silly

#100 twich

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 07:14 PM

I see the argument that more head lasers equals bigger target. I also like the design of the VF-171 and VF-171EX. I think it is probably one of the more fearsome looking mecha next to the SV-51. I do not like the BFG of the VF-25G specifically, I like the VF-11 Full Armor, but that is a Battroid only gunpod. I am not familiar with the VF-4 you named and I knew about the pap games, but not the dreamcast appearance.
Hmmm, I guess that you make a good argument that the Vf-22 wasn't too short changed, and I guess that it filled a very important role in Mac 7 for Max and Milia.
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#101 Solidus Snake

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 08:19 PM

Gotta go with the VF-22. I'm a big fan of the F-23 design. Speaking of which, I wish they'd model a VF after the F/A 18 super hornet

#102 miles316

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 10:04 PM

I always thought the vf-1 shared some fa-18 hornet esthetic from behind with the canted vertical tail .

#103 Old_Nash

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 09:29 AM

I like the YF-21.
Although theVF-22S have been based on it, which is also excellent ,I missed the BDI system. Since this caused problems to the pilot.
That was resolved by including implants in the pilot, as seen in the VF-27.

Edited by Old_Nash, 15 February 2012 - 09:30 AM.


#104 Old_Nash

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 09:36 AM

Gotta go with the VF-22. I'm a big fan of the F-23 design. Speaking of which, I wish they'd model a VF after the F/A 18 super hornet

I also really liked the design of the YF-23 Black Widow II(yes, I know another prototype is called Grey Ghost).
The bad the race was won the F-22 Raptor.

I wonder if in a real fight (not sure if this was taken into account when there was a dispute over the best fighter), he would take advantage.
Since I don't find any video.

Edited by Old_Nash, 15 February 2012 - 09:37 AM.


#105 Seto Kaiba

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 04:20 PM

I see the argument that more head lasers equals bigger target.

Well, not that much bigger... mostly what I'm hinting at is the weird shape of the head makes a multi-laser arrangement a bit hard to carry off, and not terribly advantageous.


I am not familiar with the VF-4 you named and I knew about the pap games, but not the dreamcast appearance.

's from one of the Macross II: Lovers Again canon prequel games: Macross: Eternal Love Song. It was the first starring role for the VF-4 where it actually transformed (1992) and it had as an optional weapon a BIG beam rifle longer than the fighter mode's length that looked a lot like one of the BIG beam rifles from Gundam. (It was designed by a mechanical designer who'd worked on Gundam very recently.)



I like the YF-21.
Although theVF-22S have been based on it, which is also excellent ,I missed the BDI system. Since this caused problems to the pilot.
That was resolved by including implants in the pilot, as seen in the VF-27.

Some bits of it stuck around, as a supplimentary/backup system for the production model... it's mentioned in Macross Chronicle and in the manga Macross Dynamite 7: Mylene Beat.




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