The computer and electronics super geek thread

[mikeszekely]

Well, my SSD arrived today. 250Gb, for OS, a couple games, and oft-used programs. Will be paired with 1 TB HDD for general storage and other programs.

My first SSD, and have been reading about setting them up etc. Based on the above, should I create a partition in it, or create some sort of dedicated cache/pagefile location within it for Windows? Or just have all 250 in a single simple volume?

Az summed it up pretty well. 250GB isn't a ton of space, especially if you're using Windows 7 (I have a 128GB, and I'm looking to upgrade because I'm nearly full). Just tell Windows when you install that it can use the whole thing for C: and it'll handle the rest.

In addition to Windows, without knowing what programs you use or how many, I'll say it's generally ok to install most programs on that drive, unless they're very large. Programs that autoload in the background and programs that do a lot of read/write operations especially, as that will give you the most speed at startup, but even stuff like your web browser can launch faster.

I don't recommend putting any games on that drive. Games tend to take up the most space, and you really get the most boost out of the SSD when the game launches. Once it's up and running, the benefits are negligible.

You can install Steam, Origin, Uplay, or whatever on C: and still point their game folders to the other drive. (Dunno if they patched it or not, but Uplay actually wouldn't work unless it was on C:). I'm assuming you know this, but I'll repeat it anyway for anyone else reading this thread that doesn't, but in Windows 7/8/10 you can create folders in other locations for stuff like Documents, Music, and Pictures, then tell Windows that the appropriate Libraries should both include those folders and use them as the default. This will help conserve space on the SSD.

[David Hingtgen]

Fan question (which is un-google-able due to keywords):

If the *hub* of my CPU's *fan* is hot (much more so than any case fan etc), does that mean anything?

(googling "hot CPU fan" and all varations thereof, will only get you a million hits about the CPU itself being hot, and people suggesting better fans etc)

[JB0]

I think it's probably a bad sign. If the fan runs faster than other fans, that'd be a good reason, but I'd be inclined to replace it.

But as for the search... try alternate approaches. Search for "hot electric motor" or something.

[miles316]

I just droped my Cell phone into a cup of Coffee.

Pulled out the batery and sim card but I do not have any rice on hand.

[mikeszekely]

Fan question (which is un-google-able due to keywords):

If the *hub* of my CPU's *fan* is hot (much more so than any case fan etc), does that mean anything?

(googling "hot CPU fan" and all varations thereof, will only get you a million hits about the CPU itself being hot, and people suggesting better fans etc)

Depending on how hot, it could be normal. Remember, it's sitting right over a heat sink. Heat from the CPU is actively being funneled toward it, and while the fan is meant to move the heat away and out you're essentially baking it, and that's before we even count the fact that it's got an electric motor running it it. I've worked on computers that had been running and have had reactions like touching a hot pan from touching the fan before it's cooled.

There's two things you can look for. First, is there any smoke coming from the fan? That'd be a sign that the fan or the fan's motor is burning. Second, if you take the fan off, does the heat sink appear melted? If the heat sink is failing the fan could be hotter than it should be because the excess heat isn't being radiated away properly, causing it to build up faster than the fan can move it.

[David Hingtgen]

It's not burning hot, just "hot"---even when the PC has only been on for a little bit, and nothing has gone above idle. The heatsink itself is flawless, still a mirror finish where originally present. (just re-seated it/re-applied thermal paste--it'd been years and worried about it drying out or having gotten bumped out of alignment)

Somewhat related question: new case has spots for 2 fans on top. Rear one is going to be exhaust. Trying to decide if I should use the front-top one at all (two-fan-spot on top is really intended for a water-cooling radiator I think). But---if I use the front spot on top, would it be a bad idea to make it intake? My theory is that the CPU cooler is basically inbetween the two, and below them. Thus, it'd create a pretty good circular flow. (intake, down to CPU cooler, back a bit, then back up through exhaust fan)

[technoblue]

If a heatsink is seated properly to a chip, then it should warm up. As mikeszekely was writing above, that means it's doing its job and radiating heat from the CPU. I would be concerned if the heatsink was cool to the touch and the CPU was under load (with temperatures averaging at or above the thermal design point of the chip) or if your were seeing visible damage like smoke.

The other thing to note is that heat can and may transfer to the fan, and sometimes it will do so more on certain cooling solutions than others depending on how the fan is mounted to the heatsink. That said, a hot fan motor could also indicate that the fan is nearing its end of life. I've seen that happen in my builds before. It might be worth switching the fan out now if only to get some peace of mind or to determine if a warm fan is a common characteristic of the heatsink solution that you're using.

Case Fans

Do you have other places to mount case fans for cooling? Or is the case limited to these two? With just two top mounts working as intake and exhaust, you would need to create a duct to help direct the airflow to the CPU area. Relying on the case structure as "ductwork" will probably lead to hot spots. My recommendation is to use one or both as exhaust points. If you use the back-top exhaust only, make sure to block off the front-top area somehow too.

Edited March 28, 2015 by technoblue

[azrael]

I just droped my Cell phone into a cup of Coffee.

Pulled out the batery and sim card but I do not have any rice on hand.

Take out the battery and SIM. Open any port plug caps. Place the phone in the oven overnight to 24 hours. DO NOT TURN ON THE OVEN. Any moisture in the phone should evaporate.

[azrael]

Case Fans

Do you have other places to mount case fans for cooling? Or is the case limited to these two? With just two top mounts working as intake and exhaust, you would need to create a duct to help direct the airflow to the CPU area. Relying on the case structure as "ductwork" will probably lead to hot spots. My recommendation is to use one or both as exhaust points. If you use the back-top exhaust only, make sure to block off the front-top area somehow too.

David

Remember, heat rises. As technoblue mentioned, the back and top fan mounts should ideally be exhaust. The front and bottom fan mounts should be intake. This setup can be adjusted if you used a different cooler, liquid cooling, or have a funny GPU cooler. Circular airflow usually doesn't work well. Especially if the fans are next to each other because as one fan is pulling in air, the other fan is immediately pulling it out. So it doesn't have much of a chance to pull heat out of the system and essentially the effect on temps is zero.

[frothymug]

Also consider how much intake you have versus exhaust. Too much of one kind would be a waste.

[David Hingtgen]

Still debating positive vs negative pressure etc.

Front fan is 140mm intake, rear is 120mm exhaust. It's the two spots on top that are undecided. Can use 120 or 140 there. Have 120mm currently mounted in rear spot as exhaust, of the two spots on top. (there is also a bottom spot, but plan not to use it---all it'd ever do is suck in debris----while it would blow almost directly on the GPU, I'm getting a GTX 960 which should run quite cool regardless)

[azrael]

Still debating positive vs negative pressure etc.

Front fan is 140mm intake, rear is 120mm exhaust. It's the two spots on top that are undecided. Can use 120 or 140 there. Have 120mm currently mounted in rear spot as exhaust, of the two spots on top. (there is also a bottom spot, but plan not to use it---all it'd ever do is suck in debris----while it would blow almost directly on the GPU, I'm getting a GTX 960 which should run quite cool regardless)

You can always buy some dust filters like the magnetic ones from Silverstone. I would consider 2 exhaust (1 back, 1 top), 2 intake (1 front, 1 bottom). Having extra air from the bottom fan blow at the GTX960 will not hurt it.

[Nekko Basara]

Also consider how much intake you have versus exhaust. Too much of one kind would be a waste.

I'll disagree with this in the context of positive pressure cooling setups.

My home is dusty - neither my wife or I would win awards for cleanliness, and we have several kinds of pets producing dander, fur, feathers, etc. Keeping computer cases from becoming dust traps has been a struggle. The last set I built, I set all of the cases up for "positive pressure," with about 50% more fans blowing in than out. All of the intake fans got dust covers, and I closed off any other large openings in the cases (except the ones with exhaust fans). The idea is that the air inside the case is at slightly higher pressure than the air outside, so that anyplace there is a leak (and a computer case leaks like a sieve), the air is coming out rather than sucking dusty air in. It's the same concept used in special hospital rooms, "clean rooms" in manufacturing, and NBC-proofed vehicles (albeit on a much less rigorous level here).

For me, this has been a complete success. The fan covers get filled with lint pretty quickly, but they are easy to clean off. When I have opened the cases every few months to clean them out, I've never found more than a faint coating of the very finest dust. I've been running that setup for about 18 months, and I'm ready to declare victory. I admit, it's almost certainly a less efficient use of airflow than maximizing throughput (because airflow is lost both to the pressurization and to the filters), but nothing kills airflow worse than a dust-clogged case. So, unless you have a pretty sterile computer environment or are fanatical about frequent cleaning, I'd suggest checking this approach out.

EDIT: I was just responding to frothymug and didn't realize that David asked specifically about positive vs negative pressure earlier. I hope this didn't come off as too basic or preachy.

Edited March 28, 2015 by Nekko Basara

[miles316]

Take out the battery and SIM. Open any port plug caps. Place the phone in the oven overnight to 24 hours. DO NOT TURN ON THE OVEN. Any moisture in the phone should evaporate.

thank you.

[frothymug]

Yeah, I actually agree with that. What I meant was if you are using fans on all possible intake/exhaust ports and not just using some as passive intake/exhaust. I have three passives on my girlfriend's tower, and one passive intake on my own tower. Works just fine.

[David Hingtgen]

Ok, my current setup on the new case is quite negative pressure. (140mm intake, 2x 120mm exhaust). Using the other "top" location as an exhaust would make it even more so, even with adding in the bottom fan as an intake. (oddly, my current case is only "moderately" negative but gets far more dusty than my old case, which is old/small enough to have NO intake fan, and ONLY an exhaust fan)

So, to be "definitely positive" my options are basically either:

A. Use bottom-mounted fan. (could get quite dusty/debris filled there, but there is an aftermarket custom-fit filter cover for that location, the case is popular enough for it to exist)

B. Use forward location of the two fans on top, but as an intake. (with the one right behind it an exhaust).

[frothymug]

I wouldn't put intake/exhaust right next to each other like that. Just leave the rest of the ports as passive intakes if you have enough forced airflow for the time being. Cases have been coming with a good micro-screen on the bottom port. You might be able to fashion something for the top two ports that will also help keep dust out.

I have left the top two ports open on my gf's case and it's been about 9 months since I built her system. I'll crack open her case and see how the dust problem has been dealt with thus far.

Ah, I just remembered that you have the same case as my gf, David. Should be a pretty good measure of how clean (or dirty) it gets. I'll let you know asap.

Edited March 30, 2015 by frothymug

[Nekko Basara]

I think bottom-mounted fans are great if a case (like yours) has a spot for them. Just make sure to give it a few inches of clearance off of a hard surface, which can mean augmenting the short feet of some cases; if you are placing it on carpet, put a board or something underneath it as well.

You can get a nice airflow setup with intakes at the front and bottom (many PSUs also function as an intake) and exhausts at the rear and top. That sends air over your video card as well as your CPU, and follows the natural tendency of warm air to rise.

I completely agree with frothymug that placing intake and exhaust next to each other isn't a great idea. Another way you can get the intake/exhaust ratio you want is to use fan controllers to slow down the fans to varying degrees. This has the added benefit of reducing noise (and a lot of controllers look sexy as well). Some fan controllers also include temperature sensors, and can be programmed to dynamically adjust fan speeds with heat load, although personally I've never felt the need to set that up on mine.

[David Hingtgen]

Another way you can get the intake/exhaust ratio you want is to use fan controllers to slow down the fans to varying degrees. This has the added benefit of reducing noise (and a lot of controllers look sexy as well). Some fan controllers also include temperature sensors, and can be programmed to dynamically adjust fan speeds with heat load, although personally I've never felt the need to set that up on mine.

That's the main reason I bought a more expensive mobo than originally planned---needed a decent number of controllable fan ports.

[Nekko Basara]

That's the main reason I bought a more expensive mobo than originally planned---needed a decent number of controllable fan ports.

Oh, good thinking. Controlling fans within the BIOS is even better, although you typically either need more expensive PWM fans (4-pin), or you are limited to a few settings for voltage-regulated (3-pin) fans.

[David Hingtgen]

New mobo is here. While it does have many fan connectors, they are kinda in weird locations IMHO, mostly concentrated down/forward. (I usually check that, must have forgot for this specific model variant) From googling, it seems that running a case fan off of the "CPU_OPT" header should be fine, and it was recommended that the rear fan use that one, so that it's "in sync" with the main CPU fan. (as otherwise I'm going to be running some long fan cables all around the case to make it work)

Anyone have any comments/experience with running case fans off a CPU_OPT spot? (seems the primary use for a CPU_OPT connector is to provide a second one for water-cooling setups etc)

[azrael]

Anyone have any comments/experience with running case fans off a CPU_OPT spot? (seems the primary use for a CPU_OPT connector is to provide a second one for water-cooling setups etc)

You can run any fan on any header. It just helps if you use certain headers for certain fan placements to help promote air flow, hence why they want you to place certain fans on certain headers. It is best to just follow the flow of air. Air comes in from 1 direction and exits out the other so connect those fans accordingly.

[Nekko Basara]

New mobo is here. While it does have many fan connectors, they are kinda in weird locations IMHO, mostly concentrated down/forward. (I usually check that, must have forgot for this specific model variant) From googling, it seems that running a case fan off of the "CPU_OPT" header should be fine, and it was recommended that the rear fan use that one, so that it's "in sync" with the main CPU fan. (as otherwise I'm going to be running some long fan cables all around the case to make it work)

Anyone have any comments/experience with running case fans off a CPU_OPT spot? (seems the primary use for a CPU_OPT connector is to provide a second one for water-cooling setups etc)

David, which mobo did you pick, out of curiosity? I glanced back through the thread, but I must have missed it.

[David Hingtgen]

Ended up with the ASUS Z97-AR. Because it has a better color scheme (works with everything) and was 5 bucks cheaper than the nigh-identical Z97-A. ASUS was the only company that seemed to offer really good fan-control in the BIOS----Gigabyte's current system seems to only do well with PWM fans and has been stripped down from earlier version, while MSI's boards all had "many small issues" that added up. With more fans than my last PC, precise fan control will be essential to keeping it quiet.

(my PC's are generally almost pure ASUS/Giga/MSI parts, but who makes what often swaps around).

Regarding scheme---purple! Wanted last PC to be purple-themed, but purple LED's back then were more UV than purple. Corsair's purple LED fans tested nicely to my eye, so they will be the main color source. Got some purple non-UV SATA cables, and plan to paint GPU fan shroud purple. With black/silver MOBO, it'll end up being Skywarp-esque.

(don't worry, nothing extreme---no UV-lit anything, no color tubes/strands, etc---pretty much just the fans to glow purple through the mesh/grills)

[ValkyrieFactory]

New mobo is here. While it does have many fan connectors, they are kinda in weird locations IMHO, mostly concentrated down/forward. (I usually check that, must have forgot for this specific model variant) From googling, it seems that running a case fan off of the "CPU_OPT" header should be fine, and it was recommended that the rear fan use that one, so that it's "in sync" with the main CPU fan. (as otherwise I'm going to be running some long fan cables all around the case to make it work)

Anyone have any comments/experience with running case fans off a CPU_OPT spot? (seems the primary use for a CPU_OPT connector is to provide a second one for water-cooling setups etc)

On my Asus Z97-AR, the CPU_OPT header delivers a constant 12V. I use it to power the pump of my Corsair H75 cooler because the pump needs to run at a constant speed. The two radiator fans are then connected to the CPU_FAN header. So unless you want your case fan to run at a constant speed, it is best to connect your case fan to one of the four CHASIS_FAN headers that the motherboard has.

Edited April 1, 2015 by ValkyrieFactory

[David Hingtgen]

Hmmn, in that case I may connect the CPU_OPT one to the top exhaust, and use an in-line controller to drop it down. (installing mobo tonight, will see if I can route one of the upper/rear fan's cables all the way down and around to the lower-front headers)

[technoblue]

I have an Asus Maximus V Gene motherboard. It uses the Intel Z77 chipset, which is older now but meets my needs. One characteristic that makes this motherboard flexible for me is the number of fan headers. There are a total of 5. And I am able to customize all fan settings in the UFI BIOS.

As azrael noted above, the act of physically connecting a 3-pin or 2-pin fan to CPU_OPT should work fine but many 4-pin headers are keyed to take 4-pin and 3-pin fans only. If your motherboard allows you to use any fan type and if the BIOS is able to configure the CPU_* fan headers for PWM or Voltage Regulation, then you should be okay.

Note that 2-pin fans do not have a sense lead (wire) and will not report their RPM to any fan speed utilities. This is true even if you use a 2-pin to 3-pin adapter. I don't mean to state the obvious, but that's the drawback of 2-pin fans.

If the BIOS does not offer any detailed fan configuration settings, then the PWM headers will most likely run at full voltage like ValkyrieFactory noted. If it is a silent fan, though, this may not matter. If it is a noisy fan, then you can add a resistor in line or pick up a potentiometer like the old zalman fanmate:

http://www.amazon.com/Zalman-Fan-Speed-Controller-FANMATE-2/dp/B000292DO0

Edited April 2, 2015 by technoblue

[technoblue]

That's a tough one. Standoffs are fit to specific cases nowadays instead of a specific size standard like machine screws. I've seen cases use plastic standoffs, metal clips, and the metal/brass nuts that I think you are asking about, but these do come in different sizes and thread thickness. I'm guessing that you are using the standoffs from the bag-o-parts that was included with your case. Those should work. If they are not giving a good fit, make sure you are using the correct standoff pattern for your motherboard. If that checks out and you are still out of luck, then finding a new set of standoffs may be your best option.

[David Hingtgen]

After fiddling around a while, I decided that it's probably as good as it's going to get as-is, and that going with 2mm-taller standoffs would probably make it worse (as in, too far in the other direction). (especially given the difficulties/time/expense in adapting the non-standard existing threads etc) All the USB ports were usable, which was my biggest concern. The clearance between their openings and the i/o shield is literally paper-thin, but my test USB cable plugged into all 6 ports without issue.

[David Hingtgen]

Heard back from Zalman already(less than 12 hours after I sent my email)----they said they're sending out taller standoffs via priority mail. So big props to them. Will try them out when they arrive, hopefully this weekend.

[technoblue]

^That's great news. I've had some good experiences with Zalman's customer support too.

[HoveringCheesecake]

Does anyone know how/where I can get a legitimate copy of Windows 7 for my new PC? I'm looking at the reviews on Amazon and it sounds like people are getting scammed when they buy CD keys on there. I should have used the student upgrade option that Microsoft had a few years back, but I goofed up and now it is getting tough to find.

Failing that, should I just get over it and use Windows 8.1?

[David Hingtgen]

Newegg. They've had it on sale for $79 several times the past couple weeks. I just bought one, as 8 still seems to have more negatives than positives, and 10's not out yet.

(when it comes to an OS, nothing but real physical media from a top-tier supplier, IMHO)

If you don't want to wait for it to go that cheap again, almost as good a deal at NCIX:

http://www.ncixus.com/products/?usaffiliateid=1000031504&sku=45271&vpn=GFC-02733&manufacture=Microsoft&promoid=1500

[mikeszekely]

Does anyone know how/where I can get a legitimate copy of Windows 7 for my new PC? I'm looking at the reviews on Amazon and it sounds like people are getting scammed when they buy CD keys on there. I should have used the student upgrade option that Microsoft had a few years back, but I goofed up and now it is getting tough to find.

Failing that, should I just get over it and use Windows 8.1?

Like David said, Newegg.

As far as Windows 8 goes, it was terrible when it was released. Like, so bad that I got a laptop with Windows 8 and was so frustrated I got a copy of 7 to put on it.

Windows 8 has had two major updates since then, plus hardware and software vendors have had time now to work out compatibility issues. I got a Surface Pro 3 for Christmas and I can safely say that Windows 8 is much better than it used to be. That said, it's still not better than 7, especially on a desktop, but if for whatever reason you opt not to order from Newegg and go for the convenience of buying something in a local store know that you're not buying the steaming pile of dung that Windows 8 used to be.

Either way, it could be moot in a few months. Both 7 and 8 will be upgradable to Windows 10 this summer (at no cost, providing you do so within a year of Windows 10's release). I've been running the tech preview on Windows 10 on my spare machine, and I like it a lot. It's like the best features of Windows 8 in a package that behaves much more like Windows 7 on non-tablets. I'm actually really looking forward to it enough that I'm debating whether or not to upgrade my main desktop.

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