Real World Technical References of Macross Variable Aircraft

[GuardianGrey]

Okay, Seto Kaiba, I understand that V-Max articles may have drawn conclusions with incomplete data. Though unless you have read them in whole yourself, please don't base your opinion of their articles on my presentation from.

On the Macross timelines (in Vol.2, No.6; 1995);

Macross has two timelines: the older Macross II timeline starts with the AD2009 story shared by the TV series and movie (Do You Remember Love?), followed by Macross Flashback 2012 OVA (AD2012), the Macross 2036 video game (AD2036) and the Macross II OVA series (AD2092). The more recent timeline also includes the shared TV and movie story and Flashback 2012, but then proceeds with Macross Plus (AD2040) and Macross 7 (AD2045). The two timelines are mutually exclusive (refer to the Macross Timeline article which appeared last issue).

When I first seen the VF-4 airframe, I thought there was no way that it could transform (too use to the VF-1 and Transformers series variable form). I was wrong, and will admit it.

I feel that Benjamin Wright (writer of the articles) may have thought the same (and did question it in the article).

On the mysterious VF-5, I personally feel that the VA-3M variant does the job with water landings well. With said, I also feel the VA-3M either replaced the VF-5, or is the full realization there of.

On that nuclear turbine Seto Kaiba mentioned, I agree that it does seem like the image of the FF-2001 that i posted earlier when talking about that subject. Thank you for that, Seto.

Edited April 19, 2015 by GuardianGrey

[Valkyrie Driver]

Yeah that nuclear turbine was pretty cool. Where'd you find that?

[Seto Kaiba]

Yeah that nuclear turbine was pretty cool. Where'd you find that?

NASA/CR-2005-213749 Advanced Energetics for Aeronautical Applications: Volume II... a published report from the NASA STI Program office.

[GuardianGrey]

Now that I find funny, for any (pure) NASA R&D discoveries are classified as public domain.

It makes me equally wonder if the Government(s) have access to technology that is way beyond what the public would call "sci-fi" tech, though have not released the knowledge publicly due to fears of mass panic.

In SDF Macross, they could not hide the fact that the ASS-1 crashed, though they did not release the information about the Zentradi or the development of the VF-1 as a transforming unit to the general population.

Transformers (Michael Bay), ID4, MIB & other movies/stories have similar lines of thought.

Now the actuators of the VF-25 do exist, Mythbusters have used them to bust several myths.

Edited April 23, 2015 by GuardianGrey

[Seto Kaiba]

Now that I find funny, for any (pure) NASA R&D discoveries are classified as public domain.

Yep. In this case, it was a theoretical/preliminary analysis done for NASA by MSE Technology Applications in Butte, MT.

In SDF Macross, they could not hide the fact that the ASS-1 crashed, though they did not release the information about the Zentradi or the development of the VF-1 as a transforming unit to the general population.

Not entirely true... the United Nations (before the Unified Government was established) did announce the existence of aliens in 2000 in Macross. They just kept the details (like their giant stature) to themselves.

[Valkyrie Driver]

When you think about the purpose of NASA, there's no need for the information to be classified, since it's a civilian organization, with the goal of advancing aerospace technologies. It has government support sure, and the military, notably the Navy and Air Force, have devoted many of their resources to assisting NASA, up to and including hardware.

The military stands to benefit from their relationship with NASA, but like I said, no one benefits if the information is kept secret.

We see it in Macross as well. The information regarding the threat the Zentradi pose isn't released, nor is the development of the Variable fighter, and it's not introduced as such at the beginning of SDFM, it's just a fighter as far as everyone else is concerned. The technologies derived from the Macross are public domain (with the exception of military technologies).

[GuardianGrey]

Okay, my choice of wording was poor again.

On the UN providing information, they did but not fully.

On technology for civilian purposes form the ASS-1, spinoffs of military applications were most likely. For it seems that the Protoculturian/Supervisor Army/Zentradi military craft were spartan construction.

With the declaration of development, even if not fully disclosing what it is, has allowed the UN military claim having the first VF (as to Nora & D.D. comments about the SV-51 development).

This mirrors the feeling some have that Nazi Germany may have had a transonic jet/rocket plane that flew, though not declared allowed the USAF claim the first supersonic flight.

[MILKAUTICO]

Fan Racer..... no Pegassus First 100% mexican aircraft

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=L2TtdXzkXPQ

http://www.efe.com/efe/noticias/english/business/oaxaca-aerospace-unveils-1st-prototype-airplane-developed-mexico/4/60/2599362

Edited April 29, 2015 by MILKAUTICO

[Mr March]

That is seriously cool! It looks so much like the fan racer. Uncanny!

[wmkjr]

One of the designers must be a Robotech/Macross fan. Proprietary technology? like overtechnology?

[spanner]

that Mexican plane looks cool, just needs a cockpit canopy redesign to look a lot cleaner.

And this has been a very interesting thread to read through! Awesome stuff!

[Valkyrie Driver]

Yeah it definitely has some similarities to the fan racer.

[GuardianGrey]

Fan Racer..... no Pegassus First 100% mexican aircraft

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=L2TtdXzkXPQ

http://www.efe.com/efe/noticias/english/business/oaxaca-aerospace-unveils-1st-prototype-airplane-developed-mexico/4/60/2599362

It does bare many similarities to the Fan-Racer.

The dual seats though start me to think of the Fan-Liner (the plane Minmei won as Miss Macross).

I wonder if the engine/frame could handle a larger radius of propellers to be more like the Fan-Racer for looks & speed.

[niner2k]

Aircraft from the new Independence Day Resurgence movie coming out next year

Edited June 24, 2015 by niner2k

[Sildani]

Weird. And hardly real life.

[niner2k]

My apologies was caught in the moment

[grigolosi]

Here is a very good photo of the PW F-119 engine being used in the F-22. It shows the true extent of how far a real 2D vectoring exhaust opens when in full afterburner and how cool the burner flame looks. I didn't realize after 20 yrs of fixing fighter aircraft that I missed this in the animation of the VF's in the older Macross series. All jet engines equipped with an AB open their nozzles to 80-100% in burner. I must be getting old......

[mickyg]

Can't see the pic. I may have to search this now. Need to see real world thrust vectoring awesomeness!

This it?

Edited July 27, 2015 by mickyg

[grigolosi]

Yeah, look up F-119 on Google and then go to images.That is how I found it.

[wmkjr]

Can't see the pic. I may have to search this now. Need to see real world thrust vectoring awesomeness!

This it?

Strange, I can see it on my phone but not on my laptop.

Here is the pic I saw on my phone:

Another one:

[Kurisama]

COOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL

[grigolosi]

That's the pic! That exhaust is badass!

[Valkyrie Driver]

I would have thought that the nozzle operated in reverse. I mean when you add a restriction it increases pressure (like putting your thumb over a garden hose) so why does the nozzle get wider? I'm not doubting that that's the way it works, I just want to know why.

[grigolosi]

The nozzle does work like that until you go from mil power to AB. Once you hit full mil you actually have to move the throttle through what they refer to as a "gate". In the F-16 the this means you move the throttle grip up and push it forward into burner( the throttle on an F-16 is hinged and and the "grip moves up kind of like the blk 6 throttle on the VF-1 except its range of motion far more limited). The pressure from the burner will blow the nozzle off or open and the burner flame would burn up the divergent and convergent seals (in the case of a normal jet engine) or like with this engine it would peel off the ceramic coating and then cause a burn through so the nozzle opens to 95-100%.

Believe it or not the one thing you cannot use to mark discrepancies in the exhaust is pencil. Graphite will cause a severe burn though even in titanium because it heats up so bad. We use chalk to mark any thing we find that requires evaluation by the engine specialist. In burner the exhaust get so hot that at night you can see the seals glowing red from the outside of the nozzle.

Edited July 27, 2015 by grigolosi

[spanner]

That's mega! From an F-22 I presume!?

[mickyg]

Grigolosi, have I mentioned already, how great it is to have you here? Seriously cool info you're passing on!

I had no idea they opened up sonwode to keep things from getting wrecked. I always assumed it was something to do with power.

[grigolosi]

Well the nozzle position does correlate to the power of the engine. But for the jet to work as Driver said the nozzle closes to increase the the pressure of the exiting thrust. So at Idle the nozzle is open 95-100%. As the pilot increases the throttle and the rpm of the engine the nozzle closes in conjunction with the increase of thrust. At full mil the nozzle should open no further than 0-15% (this is on the GE engine).

If you can see this( I am having issues trying to post pics and stuff) This is what its like to be in the cockpit on an engine run at start up for a maintenance run

https://youtu.be/VOeXKWRxaMc

This is a maintenance run being performed on an F-16 in Iraq from the outside. Believe me this is definitely muffled compared to standing next to Ge-110-129 in AB.

https://youtu.be/cGlxZLiJSvI

Edited July 28, 2015 by grigolosi

[grigolosi]

That's mega! From an F-22 I presume!?

yes it is. The engine is mounted on a test stand for maintenance runs after having heavy maintenance performed on it.They then run it in a hush house.

[Valkyrie Driver]

The nozzle does work like that until you go from mil power to AB. Once you hit full mil you actually have to move the throttle through what they refer to as a "gate". In the F-16 the this means you move the throttle grip up and push it forward into burner( the throttle on an F-16 is hinged and and the "grip moves up kind of like the blk 6 throttle on the VF-1 except its range of motion far more limited). The pressure from the burner will blow the nozzle off or open and the burner flame would burn up the divergent and convergent seals (in the case of a normal jet engine) or like with this engine it would peel off the ceramic coating and then cause a burn through so the nozzle opens to 95-100%.

Believe it or not the one thing you cannot use to mark discrepancies in the exhaust is pencil. Graphite will cause a severe burn though even in titanium because it heats up so bad. We use chalk to mark any thing we find that requires evaluation by the engine specialist. In burner the exhaust get so hot that at night you can see the seals glowing red from the outside of the nozzle.

Ok, I knew about the Gate, Dad (a career fighter pilot of 28 years) has told me about that before. I just never asked about the physics of the afterburner (dad was one of those old school pilots that liked to know as much about his bird as he could). Thanks for the info!

[grigolosi]

Your dad is one of the old school pilots we miss. They treated the maintainers well and would get to know their DCC and ADCC assigned to their jet.

[Valkyrie Driver]

Dad has told me about all of the shenanigans they'd get invited to participate in, like jammer races for instance... All because they took the time to get to know people. He retired in '90 just before Desert Storm, And through me he has seen some of the changes the USAF has made, and boy, is he mad about it (I am too, my tour of Duty was 2009-2014).

Anyway technical references... Anyone noticed how the Su-47 Berkut looks very similar to the YF-19? The Berkut is too new to have inspired the YF-19 but hey, Kawamori Is pretty forward thinking guy right? (Maybe I have mentioned this before but I can't remember)

[Mr March]

Yeah, it's definitely been talked about. But I believe the forward swept wing was something many governments were experimenting with at the time. The X-29 is pictured specifically in the book This Is Animation The Select Macross Plus Movie Edition (1995), so I think that was the most direct influence on the YF-19.

[grigolosi]

Forward swept wings by all rights are ideal for a fighter since they are supposed to unstable to a certain degree. Aircraft designers have been toying with them for at least 65 yrs. But the X-29 built back in the 80's was one of the first that really flew and engineers were able to get test data off of. It was supposed to have taken 3 flight control computers to keep it controllable. I imagine Kawamori was influenced by that aircraft to an extant.

Now what I think is cool also is the system built into the F-35. The pilot can see through the cockpit with his helmet. Though the system doesn't work like the YF-19's it allows the pilot to see any aircraft around him due the sensors on the nose.

[Valkyrie Driver]

Yeah, it's definitely been talked about. But I believe the forward swept wing was something many governments were experimenting with at the time. The X-29 is pictured specifically in the book This Is Animation The Select Macross Plus Movie Edition (1995), so I think that was the most direct influence on the YF-19.

That's true, the X-29 was the direct inspiration. It's just the Berkut has more in common, aesthetically, with the YF-19, in the overall shape, twin engines, the forward swept wing, the canards, and the size (being the VF-19 was a truly big bird, compared to the earlier generation fighters like the VF-1, VF-5000, and VF-11).

Forward swept wings by all rights are ideal for a fighter since they are supposed to unstable to a certain degree. Aircraft designers have been toying with them for at least 65 yrs. But the X-29 built back in the 80's was one of the first that really flew and engineers were able to get test data off of. It was supposed to have taken 3 flight control computers to keep it controllable. I imagine Kawamori was influenced by that aircraft to an extant.

Now what I think is cool also is the system built into the F-35. The pilot can see through the cockpit with his helmet. Though the system doesn't work like the YF-19's it allows the pilot to see any aircraft around him due the sensors on the nose.

Yeah, FSW weren't really viable, until the X-29, as material technology hadn't quite caught up until then.

As for the F-35, yes it is really cool. I don't quite know how the Helmet display works, but it is pretty cool that a pilot can now track an enemy wherever he goes. Mr. Kawamori is indeed a forward thinking genius, who'd have thought that we'd be seeing things today that he'd thought up in science fiction... (C'mon Star Trek, get your act together, I want my transporter already, geez...)

[grigolosi]

Unfortunately I don't know as much about the F-35 as I would like but I think if I did that system is still fairly classified as far details go.I have seen it up close and personal though. But the helmet mounted queuing system was being developed for the USAF back in in the late 90's. I know the Israelis had a lot to do with its development. It is funny how the JHMCS didn't show up until Macross Zero where as the wrap around cockpit showed up first in Macross Plus. I know both were being planned or thought out in the mid 90's or maybe earlier. But it was when I saw the wrap around cockpit in Plus that I came to conclusion of how far forward Kawamori was thinking. The Russians in typical fashion were the first to mount a Helmet mounted queuing system in a fighter, unfortunately it was very slow at locking on compared to our system and their missiles off sight boresighting weren't as good as ours.