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Ironside

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  1. If all you need is the meshes, you can get that following the instructions on the first part of the thread. The model formats for YSFlight are text based coordinate files based on VRML, so it's pretty easy to pull that data. Again, everything will show up in jumble, but all the bits are there. Got any screen caps of your 25/27? I'd be interested in seeing what you did there.
  2. Yes it can be done, but it is tedious as all hell. I'm writing this off the cuff, as I haven't bothered with this in months. If, after reading this you still want to have go, I'll try to reconstruct my method. To make this work you have to understand a few things about how YSFlight VF-X models work. The geometry of the model itself is assigned to control points. The points were designed for gun turrets and landing gear and, for the ambitious, control surfaces. It's hard to understate the amount of effort that must have gone into re-purposing those points to act as the joints for a mecha. Given the difficult of the task, it's not surprising to find that there was a bit of cheating involved. I'll get to that in a bit. These control points are key to understanding why the YSFlight models are such a pain to deal with. For any YSFlight model, there are several files. Some have to do with collision detection, while others are about the model's performance. Then there's the model itself, and the file that tells the program how all of the bits of geometry in the model go together, and how they move about their control points. This file is just as important for importing a model as the geometry is. With out this file, all of the geometry will import in the center of the modeling space (at least in blender, my preferred program. And like it or not, you'll probably need blender for this. Will explain at the end.). So the object centers for every bit of the mecha are at 0,0,0. The models come in lots of pieces, so this is a real pain. Manually reassembling is right out, as not all of them are oriented correctly, and I for one, don't have infinite time. Also, there's that cheat I mentioned. We will get to that. So here comes the first issue. The control file defaults to battroid mode. Worse, it's battroid, in flight, so the mecha is at an odd angle. In order to get the mecha in fighter mode, I hade to manual edit the control file. This file is ginourmous, but it is a text file. Once I reasoned out the format, (with help from a YSFlight community site) it boiled down to a find an replace (epic find and replace, but still). Once that's done, the cheat becomes obvious. Rather than work out a way to rotate all of the control points to make the mecha work, the models have multiple copies of the same geometry, set in roughly the correct positions. When the legs are needed in GERWALK mode, the legs for fighter and battroid are set to altitude -9999. Finding the correct value (which is usually "0" in YFSlight data terms) to position the bits and then doing the epic find and replace, puts every one of the parts in fighter mode, all lying atop one another. And of course, there's no frame. The models have no rigging. As fars as I've seen there's only one converter for the file format used by YSFlight, and that convert is a blender script. ( http://www.yspilots.netfirms.com/yspf/viewtopic.php?p=762&sid=d9f70f94f6baab5779925e14620d0903#p31518 ) that should lead directly to the relevant post, but if it doesn't go to the post sub-titled "Import SURF Objects to Blender". It should be the last, but on the odd chance that someone adds to the thred, it's the sixth.
  3. No need to apologize. I wasn't trying to tear into you. I looked into your points based on the new images. With respect to the legs--the issue you mentioned that I hadn't already noted--I was able to identify the problem. They looked too tall, but it turns out they were too short. Everything from the back of the head to the tips of the nozzles was slightly short. A few minor adjustments and most of that is fixed. I took your suggestions seriously. Sometimes, when you are doing a modeling project, you have to take whatever you can get. At the outset of this one I decided to confine myself to 1st party (anime screen shots or magazine images) or Second party (toys and models) sources until I had no other choice. So far I haven't had to use a second party source. At this point, however, I'm out of primary material that can add to my accuracy. I was just explaining why I couldn't use the FS models as sources. I'm offering my image as a stand in for the VF-25 on these scale charts, so it is important that it be as close to correct as humanly possible. At least until some real and useful images come out. So, I welcome any suggestions for improvement. But I am a bit of pedant when I choose to be, so I see a potential flaw in a suggestion, I'll likely point it out. It's nothing personal.
  4. SchizophrenicMC, you should probably make note of who you are addressing when you change thoughts in the middle of a post. Thanks for the comments on my WIP. I have some counter comments. First, it's a WIP. Work In Progress. Some issues exists because I haven't gotten to them yet. Second, while I'm sure the flight sim modelers did their best, I don't know how they arrived with what they have. I don't know who they are. I've never seen their work. So, I have to take their accuracy with a hefty amount of salt. I don't think I'm a better modeler, by any means. Nor do I believe my judgment is better. But I would be fool to take a fourth party account of a third party representation as truth. I have more images to work from, and I'll be making adjustments from there. I'll keep your points in mind.
  5. VF-25 from my 3D WIP. It's based off of screen grabs so the profile should be close, but it isn't perfect. The front of the foot needs correction and the Canopy is a little low. The tail is canted out too far.
  6. @ SeminNV I know I promised you VF-25 with a delivery date of sometime last week...but I'm so close to finishing I decided to just finish the thing, instead of offering a partially completed model. All that remains is building the head and cutting the geometry for transformation. I should have something to send you before the end of the month. Hopefully sooner, but definitely by month's end.
  7. I don't think it would block the transformation, so much as replace parts of it. The "before" picture basically removes the fighter's arms, and the FAST pack is installed in their place. I thought the 2036 VF-4 looked different. Not to suggest you're wrong--I agree with you. The way the arm/cannon mount is removed suggests the designers didn't know how Kawamori intended the VF-4 to transform, (or hadn't decided how it would transform yet). On the other hand, I don't see anything about this arrangement that would prevent the fighter from transforming. The only issue I see is the arms being replaced.
  8. It's possible that the Long Range pack is a variation of the Super Pack and not related to the sniper rifle. Mikhail's Packs include a... thing... not seen on Alto's fighter. Circled in red in the screen cap. They could be extra fuel tanks Also, it's looking more like the VF-25 has internal missiles. Still no actual proof, but Alto's FAST Packs have a potential exit port in the same place as the possible port I speculated about before. Again circled in red.
  9. Thanks! I'm close to finishing the VF-25. It's such a fun model to build, I end up toying with it, instead of building it. I decided to mark the torso transformation seams and ended up reducing the poly count some. At that point it was over 3100 polygons. Nows it's down to 2976. The VF-22 is on my list of fighters to build, but I want to get close to finishing some of the ones in WIP before adding to it.
  10. No really new developments. Still working on the VF-25. I've done 90% of the major leg parts. Working on the shoulder assemblies now. I redid the entire nose cockpit section for reduced poly count and improved accuracy. The subsurfed version is at 34k polys, while the low poly model is ~2250. Low Polygon High Polygon
  11. I don't think it's unrealistic either. I meant reinventing, as in tinkering with his designs. I think his tinkering makes it inherently impossible to know exactly what any VF is capable of. It's not a complaint, or a flaw. It's a bonus feature. Fans want to be surprised by cool stuff, and speculate on what might be in store. It's all for the good. Mr. March I agree it's very possible that VF-25 has no internal missiles. I think the reasoning that it is intentionally kept slim to allow for flexible add-on modules is well in line with Zinjo's suggestion that I called "jack of all trades" mentality. Historically, Macross armor components have the next thing to disposable. We often see pilots dumping armor and packs. It follows that the launch systems in the armor are cheaper to build than those in the Fighters themselves. The Fighter systems are meant to be maintained and last the life of the fighter (in a way. I don't mean to imply that the internal launchers built into fighter at the factor are the same launchers, component for component, 10 years later...only that they have to last a while), where as FAST pack launchers might have a life expectancy as short as one mission. Moving the launch systems to wing pylons, and Armor packs could result in a leaner, simpler and cheaper weapon system. Designing a fighter that is really add-on centric could lead to a vastly more flexible weapon. I still think there are missiles internal, but there are good and logical reasons for all of the VF-25's missile power to be external.
  12. I know this one well, being a Star Trek fan, once long ago. The Next Generation Tech Manual provided a wealth of info, but it was all grain of salt from the get go. Because standard policy for Trek production was, "This is the technical info we use for the show. It's canon until we contradict it in the show. A we will probably contradict it because we feel the story should never be held back by the supporting material." I doubt it's any different in Macross productions. I get the impression that half of Kawamori's fun is reinventing the Variable Fighter. And I can't hold that against him, because if I were him, I'd do the same thing. I also get the feeling that Studio Nue is detail oriented when it comes to fighter design. I think more specifications for VFs exist, but aren't released because they doesn't want to hem themselves in. Release too much info and you are bound to contradict yourself. Graham, I was thinking along the same lines as far as hinged doors go. I think there must be hinged doors on the leg, if only to explain were the ventral stub-stabilizer vanishes to in GERWALK and battroid modes.
  13. Graham, That is a pretty big missile. It might be able to fit through the possible exit port, but I'm not going to suggest it could. It is a pretty big port. The attached screen has the candidate port circled in red. On the other hand, I accidentally caught a much better shot of the leg, and it seems there's another launch port candidate, circled in yellow. I'm iffy on that one, as it seems thin, and it looks as though it would be flush the bottom of the wing root in fighter mode. I'm only mildly confident about the first candidate. Mostly because it seems like a regression to lose internal weapons after the VF-17, VF-19, and VF-22. Reading the minds of mecha designers is not one of my skills though. Zinjo, I'm inclined to agree. The VF-25 seems designed around a "jack of all trades" mentality. If it is carrying missiles of that size in the legs(a big if), I can't see it holding alot of them. With 6 wing pylons and two bolt on augment systems, ELINT capacity and Mikhail's sniper rifle, it seems like the VF-25 is trying to put the multi back in multi-role.
  14. At the risk of getting into another round of speculation furor, I think the VF-25 does not lack internally stored ordinance. Gilliam fires two missiles at the Varja before it kills him, and after dumping his packs. This, is of course, what I think, but I've been modeling the VF-25, and I've been combing the net and the raws for images of the legs. There appears to be a single micro-missile exit port on the outside of each leg at the knee joint. Of course, it could be that the production team simply thought explosions would really cool at that point.
  15. I admit it's not a hard stat, but the official site carries a statement to that effect (translated second hand knowledge to be sure). While such a statement isn't sufficient to derive hard numbers it is good enough to produce a ball park figure, which is all I was after. I think folks are getting way too hung up on accuracy. Accuracy is impossible with the information we have on every VF except the Valkyrie, and I'll go out on limb and say even then it's next to impossible. With respect Graham, I never presented anything as fact. Here's the complete quote you reference. Also relevant: I wouldn't call "close enough to the ball park", and "worst case scenario simulation" an attempt to present clearly identified speculative data as fact. While it is true that the VF-25 is suggested to be faster (and probably is--designers do try to meet fan expectations), for the purposes of my analysis that doesn't matter. I think Mr. March's voiciferous opposition to my post has given many people the wrong idea. Let me put it this way: If, as Mr. March would have it, we stick only to official data, my analysis proves the following: The YF-19, if given an armor system like the VF-25, could not only fly, but could also carry ~7 to ~12 tons of extra weight. Unless we assume A) VF-25 is atleast 229% heavier than the YF-19, B)the Armor system is about 30% heavier than the GBP-1s, AND C) the VF-25 has less powerful engines than the YF-19, the VF-25 should be able to fly at least as well as the YF-19 from the point above. I make no claims as to the specific performance of the VF-25, beyond interpreting a statement from the official site. I never did. I thought it would be obvious that if I could demonstrate that an older, less powerful fighter--carrying extra weight--could fly in heavy armor, the there's no reason to think the anime unreasonable by showing the VF-25 doing the same. Please note, even the specific reference you object to was used only to set a lower boundary for the discussion. The only fan speculation assumed to factual I can see in my posts is summed up as, "The VF-25 is at least as powerful as the YF-19." That is the entire basis of my analysis.
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